Notre Dame added a critical piece to its 2023 class today when four-star quarterback Kenny Minchey flipped from Pitt to the Irish. The 6’2″, 207-pound Tennessean was one of the first targets offensive coordinator Tommy Rees put on the radar when Notre Dame moved on from the talented but, uh, complicated Dante Moore in June. Minchey committed to Pitt in late April (a few weeks after Moore had privately committed to Rees and Marcus Freeman) and was an exceedingly drama-free recruit, to the point that he told everyone thanks but not thanks. The staff clearly kept working, though; it’s likely safe to now connect the dots on Minchey’s continued recruitment and the super-secret staff visits that we heard were happening during the bye week. There were certainly other fish in the pond as well, so we’re not saying Minchey was the only target, but he’s certainly no consolation prize as we’ll get into below.
IMO Minchey is the top candidate this cycle to be a CJ Stroud/Jaxon Dart who ends up ranked in the top-100 after his SR season https://t.co/P9MRikc9mM
— Jamie Uyeyama (@jamieuyeyama) July 30, 2022
The Yama tweeted this when Minchey received his Notre Dame offer over the summer. Unfortunately Minchey hurt his shoulder four games into his senior season and didn’t really get that chance to blow up, but he is recovered now and will participate in the All-American Bowl so he’ll have some chance to rise yet. Over the summer he attended the Elite 11 Finals, where he won the Pro Day workout and earned a spot in the final Elite 11 group – a group that was filled with names very familiar to Irish fans. Minchey was joined by Jackson Arnold (Oklahoma), Pierce Clarkson (Louisville), Avery Johnson (Kansas State), JJ Kohl (Iowa State), Dante Moore (Oregon), Malachi Nelson (USC), Austin Novosad (Baylor), Chris Parson (Mississippi State), Malachi Singleton (Arkansas), Jaxon Smolik (Tulane), and Christopher Vizzina (Clemson). Arnold, Johnson, Moore, Novosad, and Vizzina all held offers from Notre Dame, while Kohl and Smolik were on the radar at different times and to different degrees.
Minchey is the one who chose the Irish, though. And you know what means…
Oh yeah, how could I almost not mention… Minchey currently attends Pope John Paul II High School in Hendersonville, TN. The gingko biloba adherents among you may recall that a very notable skill position player from that same high school donned the blue and gold not too long ago – none other than Notre Dame’s first ever Biletnikoff winner, Golden Tate.
Recruiting Service Rankings
247Sports Composite — 4 star (.9123 rating), #254 overall, #15 QB, #4 in TN
On3 Consensus — 4 star (91.14), #240 overall, #14 QB, #4 in TN
The 247 Composite and On3 Consensus both combine 247, On3, Rivals, and ESPN rankings.
247Sports — 4 star (92 rating), #206 overall, #12 QB, #4 in TN
On3 — 4 star (90 rating), #259 overall, #16 QB, #5 in TN
Rivals — 3 star (5.7 rating), NR overall, #14 QB, #9 in TN
ESPN — 4 star (82 rating), #182 overall, #5 QB, #4 in TN
Friend of the Stripes Jamie Uyeyama does the recruit evaluations for ISD, and we trust his evals as much as anyone’s. So while the 247 Composite and the On3 Consensus don’t factor in ISD evals, we put a lot of weight on them ourselves.
Irish Sports Daily — 4 star (92 rating)
Cohort
In addition to Notre Dame and Pitt, Minchey holds offers from Michigan State, Tennessee, Vanderbilt, Virginia, Virginia Tech, West Virginia, and Wisconsin, among others.
Highlights
Man. Throw after throw after throw after throw is precisely on target. Like 2008 Hawaii Bowl Jimmy Clausen levels of accuracy and placement, only Minchey moves around better. Do yourself a favor and check out his junior film too – it’s six more minutes of the same stuff. He has plus arm strength, certainly more than enough to get the ball to all the areas he needs to. His ball placement is just absurdly good, with his receivers rarely ever moving off their path of travel in the slightest bit to make the catch. What really jumps out is that the accuracy and power on his throws seem to be largely if not completely independent of how settled he is or what slot he’s throwing from. He makes precise throws all over the field from the pocket, off platform, with pressure in his face, off platform and with pressure in his face… It just doesn’t matter. He’s definitely a pass-first quarterback but he’s mobile enough to be a credible threat on the read option and escape pressure when needed.
Now, let me preface this by making it abundantly clear that I’m not predicting a Heisman campaign for him at some point, but… I like Jamie’s callout to CJ Stroud above. Minchey’s game reminds me a lot of Stroud’s in that the accuracy is excellent and he’s going to move around with his eyes downfield and force you to cover people a little bit too long. Look at the second play on this reel – he’s flushed but keeps his focus downfield, pumps to get a guy in the air, then hits the wide open receiver in the space the pump fake victim just vacated. (Side note, that guy really needs to stop swinging the ball over people’s heads.) You want to blitz? Fine, he’ll throw where the pressure came from and hit someone in stride. You want to play man on the outside? No worries, he’ll drop one in a bucket over your guy’s head. Or maybe he’ll combine those and, when you blitz, bomb one into a bucket over somebody’s head (see the 1:07 mark).
About the only concern I have from his highlights is that, perhaps appropriately for a Tennessean, he has a little bit of riverboat gambler in him – he might try a little too hard to extend the play sometimes and make a throw he shouldn’t. It worked here a couple of times, but rolling to the sideline and then throwing across his body towards the middle of the field gives me agita. He needs to take that one out of the toolbox, but everything else that’s there can stay.
Impact
I don’t know if there’s a bigger fool’s errand than trying to predict quarterback impact, but what the heck… Notre Dame’s quarterback situation for the 2023 season is kind of a muddled mess. Drew Pyne is a gamer who is by all accounts universally loved and respected, but he’s not the guy. Tyler Buchner maybe is the guy, or at this point maybe was the guy; he has attempted all of 85 passes in the last three years and it’s anyone’s guess how well he’ll recover from a significant injury to his non-throwing shoulder – as well as whether he’ll suffer any other significant injuries going forward. The staff certainly can’t assume he’s the answer. Steve Angeli might have something but the team hasn’t put anyone away definitely enough for him to get a real taste yet. It’s a virtual certainty that the Irish will look to bring in an experienced transfer in the offseason as well – someone like NC State’s Devin Leary or Texas’s Hudson Card – to compete for the starting role.
The 2023 starter likely is playing for someone else right now, with (a) the QB2 competition and (b) which of all the current QBs will remain on campus the two main questions. Pyne will have his degree and could well look to move on, but on the other hand he loves Notre Dame so maybe he won’t. Buchner wouldn’t be guaranteed a starting job anywhere in the country so it’s not a clear cut case for him to move on. Angeli has a pretty easy path to being one snap away from being on the field again next year, so it would be surprising to see him move on too. Five scholarship quarterbacks is a lot, though, and there’s a five-star lined up for 2024 in CJ Carr.
Minchey will enroll early, but it still seems like a heavy ask both generally speaking and in this particular mish-mosh for him to step immediately into a starting role. Our guess would be that he redshirts in 2023 and then competes with Angeli and maybe (but probably not) Carr for the starting role in 2024. It’s the Notre Dame quarterback position, though, so as we all know, anything can happen.
Welcome to the Irish family, Kenny!
Does anyone know if he is an early entry?
I think he was moving that way with Putt when he decommitted.
Article says he’ll enroll early
He could be competing with Buchner and possibly the next year’s transfer (if it was someone with two years of eligibility left) too!
Obviously by that time one or two of the guys will see the writing on the wall and probably transfer but right now it’s impossible to know who that will be. If Buchner stayed around next year as the backup, perhaps he’ll see his opportunity to be the full-time starter again in 2024 (and maybe even get a decent amount of snaps in 2023 in a role similar to how he played last year and as a fill-in for the game or two the starter misses).
I thought 2009 was going to be the year we won it all after watching that game.
If Minchey can have near that kind of accuracy behind a solid o’line there is no reason not to start him on day 1, even if he doesn’t know the whole play book. Trevor Lawrence replaced Kelly Bryant at Clemson as a freshman. And I’m not saying Minchey is Lawrence, but Buchner (or Pyne) is not Bryant either. Pyne should probably graduate and move on (although I can see him coming back if he thinks he has a chance to be the starter). My preference would be for Buchner to back up Minchey. I’m tired of having QB’s that are underdogs punching above their weight at ND. We need some dominant QB play.
I don’t like the QB transfer angle, because I think it puts us behind the curve in developing QB’s. Why commit to a school that is just going to bring in a transfer over you? However with Minchey in this class and Carr committed for ’24. I suppose I could see taking a one year transfer ala Jack Coan. We need guys that committed to us playing QB though, IMHO.
Just about every school is taking transfer QBs. There may be good reasons not to take one in a particular year but this isn’t one of them. That’s just the game now. You are going to have to compete not just with high schoolers being recruited but other college QBs.
Gotta pick one of these statements:
If you want dominant QB play, gotta bring in talented QBs. Usually that means portal, unless you find a young one.
Minchey probably sees the field in 2024 or he transfers then or soon after. (Same with Carr by 2025). That’s just how it goes at the position these days where like 50%+ of good QBs play for more than one school.
I can’t have my cake and eat it too?
Ideally they could just make it easy and recruit a Quinn or Clausen every third year and be done with any unnecessary QB drama, but unfortunately that’s too difficult 🙂
At a minimum we need to bring in a separate QB coach if Rees is going to stay as OC. The QB roster is harder to manage now than it was 15 years ago, but it doesn’t have to be and should not be this messy.
Will be interesting to see what happens with Rees this off season.
We couldn’t be a whole lot further behind the curve in developing QBs. Right now we need to take every measure possible to upgrade the QB depth chart to get us from today to, most likely, Carr’s sophomore year. If there is one position where ND needs to be ruthlessly business-like, it’s QB. Minchey is a good first step. I think we need a transfer for next year too.
Frankly, I don’t think Buchner should be part of anyone’s long-term plans at this point, even as a backup. He would be my first choice to transfer out, even before Pyne.
Why the downtrodden view on TB?
I don’t disagree with your first paragraph at all and having a business-like mindset. Just interested on why him over Pyne.
Evidence vs. hope, basically.
If we’re assuming one of them will be the backup to Minchey next year, I’d rather have a backup who (1) will have 11 full college football games under his belt, (2) has proven he can run something close to the full offense, and (3) isn’t injury-prone. Based on on-the field-results, that’s Pyne, not Buchner.
This sounds harder on Buchner than I mean it to sound, but he’s only shown that he’s an injury-prone gimmick QB who can jump-start the offense for a few plays when the opposing defense isn’t ready for him. I do not think our fanbase has a realistic view of him. Hopefully the coaching staff does.
He’s played like a game and a half. And the one full game was on the road at OSU, maybe not the best gauge of his merits. Last year was an entirely separate issue. It was a big W for him that he played at all, but in fact he proved to be essential in a couple of games that ND won.
I guess what I’m saying is that people extrapolate a whole hell of a lot about Buchner, other than the fact that he does have difficulty staying on the field. That part is a reasonable conclusion, which is why a transfer QB is pretty much essential. But that shouldn’t rule TB out from starting again in the future.
Boy, if we bring in a grad transfer QB, I think I would definitely prefer Buchner as the backup. Specifically BECAUSE he’s shown that he “can jump-start the offense for a few plays.” Having that in the bag against a defense that is shutting down our offense would be great.
If Pyne or Buchner has to get significant run next season because the starting grad transfer goes down, we probably aren’t making the Playoff anyway. So in that case, I would rather just have Buchner for that change of pace.
I don’t follow. Let’s say Transfer QB starts but gets his knee blown out by Navy in week one and is out for almost the whole season. You would rather have Buchner than Pyne in that scenario?
I guess it depends on what our goal for next season is. I haven’t spent any time thinking about the returning roster or what is realistic. But let’s assume we have the roster to make the Playoff with Grad QB. If he blows out his knee in week 1, we aren’t making the Playoff with either Pyne or Buchner, so it doesn’t really matter who the backup QB is.
But, let’s say it’s Week 7 and we’re down 10-3 at halftime to Clemson. They can’t get much going offensively, but they’ve been shutting down our offense. I would love to have Buchner able to come in for a drive or two in the 2nd half, to try to jump start our offense. That isn’t something Pyne could do.
(At the end of the day, I’m typing a lot of words about a situation that really doesn’t matter much; it’s unlikely either Pyne or Buchner are going to have a significant impact on getting us to the Playoff anyway)
Got it, thanks. I’m thinking of the backup as more of a worst case scenario, like what happened this season when we lost the starter in game 2.
In the words of Manning’s old coach on why the backup never got reps. “We don’t practice f***ed.”
If our starter goes down next year for more than 1-2 games, I’d rather Angeli get reps than Pyne.
Yea there is no scenario that I can think of which I would want Pyne getting reps.
Pyne is not getting any better than he is and he is not very good.
Other guys at least have some potential (so they at least of the possibility of getting better).
I would way rather have Buchner in this case. At least with Buchner there is the hope of the unknown and a higher ceiling. With Pyne we know what we are getting.
However, if we had a QB get injured for a very short amount of time, I’d take Pyne.
I think I’d rather have Buchner even for a short amount of time. He would at least add the run element and make the run game stronger whereas Pyne is just all over the place. If he was consistent (consistently below average) then I’d agree with going with Pyne for a game or two.
Buchner times a thousand. Pyne is like the ultimate baseline for mediocrity at the position. Another year in college isn’t going to make him any taller.
My hope is that Pyne transfers to create some room, and then Buchner, Angeli, Minchey, and the transfer battle it out next spring. I’m a Buchner fan so hope he wins and shines next year but think he’s a great option at backup too. Love the change of pace he brought in 2021, and hopefully is sharper next year.
Yeah, idk if Pyne will graduate or not, but hopefully they’re going to be very real and honest with him and thank him for everything but make it clear he’s going to be buried from incoming QBs and not in line for a lot of playing time moving forward and kind of push him towards the door unless he’s fine just sticking around.
Ideally, Buchner stays and is the backup and maybe they have packages for him like 2021 where he plays a little. Then gotta get a Devin Leary or Hudson Card or some legit actual starting QB caliber guy in the door.
(That’s kinda why I don’t get why they’re preserving Angeli’s eligibility this season. Even though it could be a nice gesture for his long term future, should have burned that first year by playing vs BC to give him snaps and see him play. He’s a 3rd/4th string guy in 2023 and probably can red shirt then).
Unless Minchey is way more advanced than we know, I don’t think he’s too deep in the mix for QB1 next summer, but I guess you never know how a season could unfold.
I wonder if they put Angeli in if the weather is better against BC. With the snow and wind it’s not like his performance would give you an indication of what he’s capable of. Likely just putting him in to hand the ball off.
Angeli would have gotten nothing playing this past week – it’s not like real reps throwing in 20 mph wind and snow. Instead, they ensured that he definitely can get a redshirt year. At a minimum it did him a favor so that he doesn’t have to worry about it going forward, and at a maximum it may pay off for ND in four years.
He would have gained nothing by playing college football in poor weather to get experience playing in harsh South Bend conditions? Hope they don’t need him for a game 1-3 November’s from now.
That game was a joke and he should have played at least 3-4 drives. Those are real reps and he would have gained quite a bit for doing so. Now he’ll come back next year and be probably no higher than 3rd on the depth chart…He should red shirt then. Makes no sense not to use him in a blow out game, when he possibly/probably won’t play again this season anyways.
/chugs haterade
A .91ish Elite 11 QB with a lot of high school accuracy, some but not much ability to run, and a not-strong arm you say? https://247sports.com/player/drew-pyne-88572/
/hater-mode off
We needed a QB for this class. He is a QB. Ideally would be an off-cycle guy instead of somebody who follows Angeli (himself an off-cycle guy), but he’s a guy and the more guys we get the more likely we will have a hit.
2019 LSU ahoy!
Pyne got a Bama offer?
A non-committable offer that was rumoredly finagled by his dad (that rumor has never really made sense to me – why would Bama do his dad a favor – but it is conventional wisdom on some corners of ND message boards)
Seems Pyne shrunk.
Not sure how Pyne’s arm or physical stature are within a mile of Minchey. The latter is a good 3 inches taller.
Spud Webb is a good 3 inches taller.
Dude haha
He’s probably being a bit harsh towards Minchey, but maybe let’s hold off on the 2005 Vince Young predictions this time.
Relax and try to *enjoy* some stuff once in a while, eh?
You should check out my reaction to the BC game:
Being realistic =/= Not enjoying things
Was Minchey being similar to Pyne and also being a human playing QB the realistic take?
I’m curious how high the Composite score would have to be before you and nd09 credited Rees with signing a good QB prospect 🙂
It was a *joke*, Eric. He’s 5 inches taller than Pyne. As we learn at least twice a game when a ball is batted down, QB height matters! He also has a stronger arm than Pyne, which, not saying much but yes that is good.
But we’ve gone over this a few times and sub-.92 Composite prospects across the board are more likely to wash out than be starters at ND. As a result, I think it’s fair to say that based on what we know, it’s more likely than not that he will never be the guy going into a season. I hope that is wrong and that he turns into Deshone Kizer (himself a sub-.92 recruit) or something better; that would be swell.
I just question the value of “great, he’ll probably never play or be that good” on the day the kid commits to Notre Dame.
It’s weird, at best.
I thought this was the intelligent ND fan site! It’s easy to find recruiting boosterism by going to every other ND recruiting site on the internet and read the paid content. Or, if you want a thing that says every recruit sucks, you can go to the message board of every other recruiting site on the internet and find the hater’s ball. I don’t see the point of a knee-jerk “every recruit who selects ND is a great and welcome addition” just as much as I don’t see the point on automatically being a hater on every non-5-star recruit who commits. Part of my original comment was a bit of a tongue-in-cheek corrective to Brendan’s write-up, which almost makes him sound like a 5-star talent.
Overall I think my real take is rather valid – a .91 composite QB is a worthy scholarship player but odds are better than not that he won’t be a long-term solution at ND (and I hope he overcomes those odds!). Do you disagree with that? If not, in all seriousness, what’s the problem with saying so here?
You called him “a guy” and want a pat on the back for participating in intelligent conversation?
You really haven’t offered anything substantiative about Minchey, except pointing out his Composite score.
If that’s it, no one cares!
And I only care because within a couple hours of him committing you’re slapping a scarlet letter on him before he steps on campus.
It’s pretty dumb.
This isn’t even the meanest thing I’ve seen about Minchey! Somebody on the 247 message board called him Dante Poor, which, I have to admit I chuckled, but very mean!
Comparing Minchey to anything about Pyne seems way worse but very on brand, I must confess.
I was being sarcastic and leaning into the brand! Cut me some slack; I had the self awareness to include the “/chugs haterade” to try to show I was (hopefully) joking.
My actual opinion is in the second paragraph. He’s a guy; recruits under .92 are generally not successful; hopefully he will be.
Should we just copy and paste this into our recruiting grades and player comments for him when we do the 2023 class?
Come on; I’m shorthanding here. Would “mid-to-low four-star” be better?
And, to some degree, yes! Just lazily doing that would probably be more accurate recruiting coverage than you can get in most places in terms of appropriately setting expectations. But of course you all don’t have to be as lazy as I am.
Not to critique the free content here too much – I’ll take what I can get; it’s better than just about anywhere else – but I’d argue the recruiting analysis would be more interesting if it were posed in a “ok, here’s how he might outplay his ranking, which would imply he won’t ever start/but also here’s why he’s ranked the way he is and probably won’t start unless he can overcome X/Y/Z” instead of primarily highlighting all the cool things about relatively lower-ranked recruits (which, again, you can get on every other ND site from Tom Loy/Jamie U etc.). If you think that’s unfair or too mean to do to 18-year-olds, fair enough, but then you are risking “he’s a guy; recruits under .92 are generally not successful” being a more directionally accurate recruiting analysis than these types of write-ups.
Here’s my blurb on Drew Pyne from our class grades:
Eric: 79
Every time I see film on Pyne I can’t help but see Chase Daniel. If Pyne can throw for 101 touchdowns and over 12,500 yards I’ll take it! Size is obviously a massive concern. He’s listed at 6’0″ and doesn’t really move around in the pocket a whole lot. He also looks to have a smaller frame like Everett Golson. I can’t see Pyne really challenging for starting reps for quite a while. He’ll have to become a very efficient precision passer and really develop physically in a way I’m not sure is possible right now.
He was our 2nd lowest rated recruit in the 2020 class, trailing only Ehrensberger.
What you’re describing is exactly what I think we do well.
Maybe Minchey will be graded lower, too. Maybe he’ll be graded much higher. What there isn’t much value in is determining x,y,z based off a Composite score or that he’s not a glaringly obvious 5-star talent, therefore who cares.
Generally speaking, most like Minchey more than his Composite score. And I think that had a lot to do with your comments downplaying his commitment, no?
I thought it was funny/sad that Minchey’s commitment was being praised just about everywhere on ND sites and then I clicked here and you were like, ACTUALLY…
OK, fair enough, and yes I am consciously being contrarian and am being intentionally overly snarky here, in part because, again, was making a joke in part. But also here’s the initial Drew Pyne commitment write-up, which is pretty cringey to read in retrospect and reads somewhat similarly to this Minchey post: https://18stripes.com/2020-recruiting-elite-qb-drew-pyne-commits-to-notre-dame/. I realize that’s not quite apples-to-apples, as Pyne committed way earlier in the process, but also like the above there really is basically zero negative things in there (in retrospect, maybe that could have mentioned Pyne’s height, no? Similarly, with Minchey, maybe could have at least tried to explain or explain away his less-than-impressive offer list a bit more given the gushing analysis, no?).
When write-ups are positive vibes only – as is often the case at least across the pay sites – absent a case like Kyle Hamilton where everyone is immediately like “this guy is underrated by at least 400 spots; maybe should be a 5-star”, it’s hard to tell when a guy is truly underrated or there’s just run-of-the-mill trying to make readers happy because a kid committed. E.g., is Minchey “being praised everywhere” because he’s (a) seriously underrated (b) it’s a good save because ND’s 2023 QB recruiting situation appeared to be in a really bad place two months ago and we ended up with somebody in the top 300/who would be a respectable QB recruit in any year, or (c) any four star QB ND lands will get near-universal praise? I can’t really tell, even after reading the pay sites and this.
I suppose a point I’m getting at is it would be nice to not have to wait to the comparative recruit write-up post-Signing Day to get a realistic sense of where they are. “He probably won’t start in 2023” is like, yes we can see he is not Trevor Lawrence, but do we think as a recruit is he better than Angeli? Carr? If one’s answer is a hard yes, fair enough. If the answer is it’s hard to say, consider the possibility that this write-up was at least somewhat overly enthusiastic with its analysis, and maybe it wasn’t entirely unfair of me to poke fun at that.
You’re right that almost everywhere is going to try and find the positive side of a commit.
But, I don’t see a genuine attempt from you to to tell us what the scouting report is on Minchey, either?
So if you’re going to be contrarian just to be contrarian there’s merit to that but it’s also not necessarily all that accurate either.
Couple thoughts on this:
1) He’d be above the .9200 cutoff if Rivals could just get with the program. They’ve been pretty bad for the last few years now (they looooved Pyne, FWIW)
2) QBs are a different animal and that rule generally hasn’t applied to QBs at Notre Dame over the last decade
That’s fair! Kizer and Book were indeed lower-rated than Minchey, and basically everyone higher rated than Minchey since Clausen has been at least somewhat disappointing.
But, and while it is interesting, I’m not sure why that trend should be expected to continue at ND. Obviously high-4/5-star QBs bust all the time across the country, but also they tend to be the first-round draft picks too. Ohio State is collecting as many of them as they can for a reason.
Your point seems to be “we need to be ‘collecting’ 5 star or high 4 star QB recruits or the QB room is a mess.”
I’ve asked this question in this thread earlier: what would be your plan? Who is the guy that we bring in that can “collect” those kinds of players for us?
I mean I think that is the only way that one can be assured that one always has a really good starter. Obviously it can work out without that, but it takes some luck. We really do need at least a top 100 QB recruit basically every year.
I think one might think that Rees hasn’t been doing that and while we don’t know who else out there can, it may be worth giving someone else a shot.
I guess I’d like to see what Rees will do with Freeman at the helm first though before moving on from Rees. The early indications seem to be an improvement.
Either way, it’s doubtful Rees will be around much longer anyway since most coordinators don’t last much longer since if they do well, they move up or if poorly they get fired/replaced.
Isn’t the primary theory of the case for Freeman as head coach that recruiting will get better, and thus we should be benchmarking ourselves against the top recruiting schools? If the answer to that is yes – and it is, imo – why is QB exempt from that?
QB recruiting doesn’t count because Drew Pyne is good enough to get us a run dominated win against Clemson, clearly a mighty feat of his cannon arm and impeccable ability to read a defense, please ignore what happened against Stanford and what your own lying eyes see if you watch the games. And all the other misses are okay because DJU actually didn’t pan out that well
My man, collecting good players is called recruiting. It’s a really important part of a college football coach’s job.
Real Question(s): Is all of the criticism regarding Rees and QB recruiting/development a bit overblown at this point? Because it seems like everyone wants him to go after this year, and his play calling OCing don’t seem to be the issue. Seems like it’s all based on the fact that we have Pyne as a starting QB, which in and of itself, the argument goes, shows that the QB room is a mess. As I see it, though, TR should get at least some credit for Book and Coan – be it for recruiting them, developing them, or just coaching them (all with the whole PJ situation looming over – if I recall, he was supposed to be the savior). In addition, he brought in TB, who was fairly highly regarded when he was being recruited (if memory serves), and it’s still not known how that will turn out. And now he’s landed Carr and Minchey as well. And we still don’t know what we have with Angeli. Seems like TR is not as bad a QB developer/recruiter as everyone has been saying. Seems like this all comes down to that he picked Pyne over McCarthy (or somemone else) and he didn’t bring in a transfer this year. I don’t know. Does that really make him a bad QB recruiter and developer? Isn’t he allowed to swing and miss at times? I get that with Pyne at the Helm this year things seem bad. And admittedly, it’s hard not to want to question the OC/QB guy when you end up with Pyne as your best option. But on further review: (1) Is Pyne THAT bad? Rees/Pyne destroyed Clemson. Do you destroy Clemson with a terrible QB? It’s Clemson. Surely, no matter how good your running game, if your QB is flat out atrocious, they’re going to be able to stop you. It can’t be that when we lose it’s TR/Pyne’s fault and when we win it’s just the OL/running game. Fact is, TR got stuck with a back up this year and has still managed to win some significant games. To me, that’s good OCing and good QB developing. Maybe I’m nuts. (2) We ended up with Pyne for reasons that were, to some extent, out of TRs control. I’ve mentioned this before, but there’s some indication that the portal was not an option this year at QB with Freeman taking over the program – there just wasn’t enough time/bandwidth for the staff to navigate the ND transfer rules, put an entire coaching staff together, keep the 2023 class together, prepare for the season, etc. So I’m not sure you can blame TR for not bringing someone in. Also, you can’t blame TR for TB getting hurt, and who knows what this team would have done with TB all year. I know some people are down on TB and consider him a bust, but I’m not sure what the justification for that is. He played against The Ohio State and… Read more »
There is a lot of hate directed toward Rees, but a lot of it seems to be lingering hate toward Kelly. We have had 6 games (an all time record) with 35 or more point and five in a row. All of those are with a back-up QB. Rees deserves some credit for that. Also, the offense has completely changed from the first two games. With Buchner it was RPO all the time with the QB keeping a fair amount. I don’t think we really run RPO at all now, and the QB is not an option. Tough to retool a team on 20 hour practice weeks. Pyne runs the whole offense he is capable of in other words. He is not a runner so he doesn’t have some of the Buchner plays. Unless you hit on someone, the QB room is always a mess. You recruit 4 or 5 OL a year, a miss or two you may not notice. You recruit 1 QB a year. You miss and it is an issue. An injury and it is an issue. We have that issue. Rees is fully responsible for that QB room. He has been there long enough. Buchner was highly regarded when he committed, but he slipped a little. Buchner does seem injury prone, the one at ND is weird, but he did lose a HS season to an injury and then one to Covid. California played football in the spring in what would have been his senior year, but he was an EE. I think he would have benefitted from playing rather than spring ball. Who knows. Smarter minds than mine. I agree with not playing Angeli against BC to preserve his redshirt, if only for him. He was only going to hand off so why bother. If you wanted to protect Pyne, put in Powlus for that. However, I do think the decision to redshirt Angeli is wrong. If Buchner had remained healthy, then it is the right call. However, he is QB2. He has not taken a meaningful snap. All we know is that he knows which way to turn to give the ball to a back. If he has to go in against USC or in the bowl, the fact that he has no meaningful snaps will matter. As for next year, we have seen what Pyne can do. He is limited, but he is also 8-1 as a starter. Something to be said for that. Buchner basically lost this season, so he has now played 1 full year of football in the last 5. He is completely inexperienced. Angeli has more experience. We will go into next year with three QBs with little or no college playing time (Minchey, Angeli, Buchner) and one limited but somewhat experienced. All those advocating for the portal basically want to trade Pyne for a QB to be named while the three (likely more talented with greater upside) sort themselves out behind him. I am not sure that… Read more »
The 35 points stat that people keep referencing also include special teams and defense points. Against Syracuse we had a Pick 6 and a 2 yard TD drive. Against Clemson we had a punt block TD and pick 6. Against Navy we had the worst half of offense football I have seen in a decade.
Yeah that 35-point streak seems CV-worthy but it’s not as impressive if you dig into the specifics.
Also 35 ppg isn’t quite what it used to be. If you averaged 35 ppg in FBS this season, that would be 25th nationally. Don’t get me wrong — it’s good, but there’s still some meat left on the bone here.
People also trotted out similar PPG games for why Chip Long was good, actually. That tone changed pretty quickly.
well but he was mean and tommy is
/camera pans to booth
nevermind
Agreed. But it was also a total domination of Clemson with our backup QB, regardless of total points.
Turns out clemson was pretty soft and we could run all over them. Credit to Rees for playcalling on that one and pulling the “do this until they stop it” card – sincerely, I said that after the game too – but I’m not sure how “we won with our backup QB, so actually the QB situation isn’t that bad” isn’t a clear sleight of hand
I’m not sure how “Clemson was pretty soft” so the QB doesn’t matter isn’t a bit of prestidigitation as well
the QB didn’t matter. You could probably have played almost literally any D1 scholarship QB in that game and won it the way we did
We threw for fewer than 100 yards and won. Drew Pyne did not play a good game against them. Come on.
Yeah, I’ve conceded that he’s not good. Not the point. He’s a backup that we beat Clemson with. He was good enough. He’s not the worst back up in the history of back ups, clearly. He Dilfer’d us to a win. It’s not nothing. It’s not a position that you get to show up and “do nothing.”
Point: indicting TR on the basis of Pyne is not good, doesn’t seem particularly strong. Come on.
I can’t tell if this is an indictment of TR or not. Seems to be saying that TB was highly rated, but potentially injury prone…..but still might be the answer. If he is, and if Angeli is a capable back up, is the QB room still a mess? Seems like at that point we have a starter for 2023 (TB), two capable backups, and Minchey and Carr in the wings.
It seems like the entire criticism on TR as a QB recruiter/developer hinges on whether TB works out or not, despite that he was recruited as a high level recruit.
I am on team Pyne is THAT bad. Even in the games when his numbers are good, he seldom hits anyone in stride. He also seems to miss a lot of easy reads and open players (i.e. doesn’t notice them). He manages the game fine, but so would a whole lot of others.
He has very few passes that stand out as legitimately good throws. But will give him credit for the TD pass to Thomas against Navy, that was excellent.
As to Rees, I’m not really on either team.
Right – he’s definitely not someone you’d pick to be the starter. But is he THAT bad as your back up?
For a top-10 program? Yes.
We’re on track to be 8-4 or 9-3, which I believe was the top end of your prediction range for us this year BEFORE TB got hurt. We’re currently ranked 13/15. Just sayin…
On the other hand, I think it just goes to show how good the rest of the team around Pyne is.
It’s a little bit like those old Raven’s teams which carried Dilfer to a super bowl title – great running game, great defense and they won it all. Dilfer was barely an average starting QB and if I remember correctly he didn’t last that much longer (or longer at all) on the Ravens because he just wasn’t very good.
Totally. I was actually thinking of the Pyne-Dilfer comparison earlier. Again, I’m not saying Pyne is good or even better than people give him credit for. I’m just saying, the fact of Pyne, in and of itself, doesn’t seem to be a valid indictment of Rees or the “QB room”
No, absolutely not.
In my opinion:
1. At an absolute minimum, it’s time to move on from Rees as QB coach. 2023 will be his seventh year in that position and our QB recruiting, development, and roster management is way below where it needs to be. Minchey is a good addition but we are years from being out of the woods here.
People really need to look at what other programs are doing at this position to understand how far behind we are.
2. Personally, I would prefer to move on from Rees as OC as well. I sort of understand the folks who are resistant to that idea, but for every first half of Navy, there’s a second half of Navy. For every Clemson, there’s a Stanford. Rees’s moments of brilliance as a playcaller aren’t enough to offset his tendency to panic and go on tilt, which is a product of his inexperience. With a first-time HC with an entirely defensive background, we simply need more experience on this side of the ball. And we need to think about this issue more long-term than racking up 35+ against bad ACC teams for the last month.
Again, compare Tommy’s experience to that of top flight college football coordinators. He is a decade-plus behind the ball here.
In short, QB must be better, and I’m convinced playcalling can and should be better. Tommy has spent a lot of time at and earned a hell of a lot of money from ND. It would be productive, normal, and healthy for everyone to move on.
Understood. I’m struggling to see what else he could have/should have done since he’s been here, though. He seems to be getting fairly highly rated recruits. I mean, he’s not landing 5 stars, but is that all on him? Seems like most schools miss out on them. Are there QB coaches out there who you feel can come in and consistently land better recruits than Rees?
The first example of what Tommy could or should have done that jumps to mind is taking a transfer QB in the 2021-2022 offseason. According to Freeman, Tommy was given complete authority over that decision and concluded that we did not need a transfer. That was a big error of judgment. Even if you think Buchner would have been a rock star, at a minimum, we needed more depth on this roster to deal with injuries.
Did Freeman really say that Rees had complete authority over that call?
Here is exactly what Freeman said:
Thanks that’s helpful.
That’s not quite the same as Rees had complete authority over that call.
I guess not, but does it make a meaningful difference?
I think it does if you read into it a bit. Freeman seems to have been saying “We don’t have a ton of bandwidth to be trying to navigate the portal. Can we make it on what we have?” I find it hard to believe he consciously decided to put blinders on and just say “TR you make the call.” I think you can reasonably infer that he preferred to not have to go the transfer route if possible. I could be wrong. If I am, then you’re probably right that it’s not meaningfully different
I do wonder how much Kelly held back the QB recruiting too in the past. Also, wasn’t ND admission standards a problem too? Wasn’t Walker Howard ready to come to ND but couldn’t get in? And Moore this year was a silent commit but NIL came calling (where ND is lacking here)?
I know the grass is always greener but it’s also not hard to imagine someone coming in and being much worse at this than Rees under the more difficult circumstances at ND. Not to mention with Freeman at the helm, this might be less of an issue of getting top-tier QBs (but of course to be determined).
That’s what I’m talmbout
All of the advanced stats say the offense has not been meaningfully better since Tommy got here, and it has arguably been demonstrably worse. For me, it’s not hard to imagine someone coming in and being much better at this than Tommy.
Kelly did a poor job of recruiting and developing QBs at Notre Dame, I agree. I do not understand why we kept his protégé on as the recruiter and developer of QBs when Kelly left.
Counterpoint: Pyne is really bad.
Counter-counterpoint: we destroyed Clemson with 5 star DJ and 5 star Klubnik with really-bad-Pyne.
If Pyne is as bad as you say, wouldn’t that mean TR is even
better than we thought as an OC?
I don’t think this quandary will ever get fully tackled by some. Not as long as things can always get turned back into personnel and roster management.
FWIW I for one have been consistent about this – I don’t think Tommy is a bad playcaller! I grumble in real time about the 2nd and 10 runs, but overall I think he’s pretty good (particularly for a 30 year old!). I even really loved the Oklahoma State gameplan of throw throw throw.
It’s just that the QB room is completely messed up and he has been the QB coach for quite a while. To your comment above about us giving him credit for signing a good QB: unless you count Coan as a “signing,” – which, reasonable; it is Tommy’s greatest recruiting victory as QB coach – the next demonstrably good QB he signs will be the first one. His track record on the evaluation/recruiting front is really not good, so more than a little skepticism is warranted. (Yes, yes; it’s not all on Tommy/BK is to blame for some of that QB recruiting too.)
But, truly, I hope that changes! QB really is the piece we need a hit on to have hopes of winning playoff games.
Ok but explain how the QB room is a mess. Everyone says that like it’s obvious. But I haven’t seen a single sentence of analysis on it. Seems to me like Rees has brought in some highly rated recruits, coached them well, and filled gaps by bringing in a transfer. I get that he’s not batting a 1000 and that his play calling is further along than his roster management/personnel decisions. But I just don’t see the disaster that everyone else is seeing. As I said, the criticism seems to rest entirely on Pyne being our QB at the moment. He’s not good. Ok, fair enough. But he wasn’t TR’s first choice either. “TR recruited him.” Ok, so what? It’s a miss. It happens. I don’t see how this all translates into “the QB room is a mess.” Is it because we don’t have 3 five stars and one high four star in the cupboard?
I don’t think people generally realize how few QBs are a hit every year. It’s not high. QB recruiting is tough.
Same. I feel like the expectations are somewhat unrealistic. It’s like when Costanza got hired by the Yankees:
Here’s something from following the Marshall loss that I’m reposting (and has been somewhat ameliorated with the Minchey commitment!):
“Just for a rundown of Tommy Rees’s QB recruiting:
Keeps Jurkovec after somebody else got him to commit. Somehow people this past offseason wanted to give Tommy a lot of credit for this when I pointed out Rees is a bad QB recruiter. Anyways, that relationship didn’t go great overall!Recruits Cade McNamara hard after a good workout. Commits. Solid follow-up after Jurk. Whoops, loses him to Michigan. 3-star result.Sees teeny Drew Pyne and somehow decides this is the guy early on. Pyne has the worst long throw in the history of the Elite 11 QB competition, does not phase anybody. Pyne only stays a 4-star because he was horribly overrated early for some inexplicable reason, but he was a mid-3-star talent from day 1. Despite people thinking he’s a quality backup, he is not somebody who would start at most MAC schools.Picks Buchner over JJ McCarthy. Early returns are not favorable.Focuses in on Steve Angeli and Gavin Wimsatt over Drew Allar. Was a period where it was obvious Allar had a cannon and would commit to ND if offered. They offered Allar after that window closed. Angeli is looking better than anticipated, but Allar looks special. Whoops.2023 QB recruiting gets totally screwed up by taking CJ Carr’s commitment before Moore commits publicly.CJ Carr is our great hope. He probably won’t be on campus until [January] 2024”
In retrospect that isn’t truly fair because it doesn’t give him any credit for Coan’s commitment, but also it doesn’t knock him for failing to secure a transfer QB this offseason, which reading between the lines of reports it sounds like was mostly Rees’s call at the time.
He has been a poor QB recruiter/evaluator thus far; it’s basically impossible to argue otherwise. You want to say it’s hard to hit on QB, fine/yes there are lots of busts, but to some degree your abilities here are results-driven and in that area his results are 2021 Coan and then not a ton else. It’s not crazy to think it will turn around, because it only takes one very good guy to make that happen, but also that does involve faith at this point.
I would just like to see the same results with other OCs around the country not at Clemson/OSU/Bama/Oklahoma who seem to be the only schools that have consistently just brought in elite QBs (and so aren’t worrying as much about evaluating talent from year to year; though even with them I’d be curious to see how it works out with the elite QBs they pick. It doesn’t work out every year for all of them. Did they even pick the wrong ones in a given year? Etc.).
Without any comparison it’s really hard to know whether this is basically standard in the industry or not.
Grr I tried to fix the formatting of this from the copy/paste; annoying.
“It’s basically impossible to argue otherwise.”
Seems unnecessarily emphatic. And your analysis doesn’t really support that statement. You’ve implied TB is a bust in the statement in “early returns are not favorable.” But is there really enough evidence to say TB is not going to be a solid if not high quality QB for ND. If he is, is the QB room still a mess?
Not asking rhetorically. Asking honesty whether that changes the calculus on TR as a QB recruiter/evaluator/developer
If Tyler Buchner were a good quarterback, Tommy Rees would demonstrably have recruited a good quarterback. If Steve Angeli is a good quarterback, Tommy Rees would have demonstrably recruited a good quarterback. Not sure I get your point.
Based on what we’ve seen, there’s not really reason to think Buchner is good – or at least isn’t a year or two away from being good. Even if McCarthy hasn’t been amazing this year, all things considered I think it is fair to say that still looks like a misevaluation. Angeli similarly hasn’t shown anything (which is fine – I wouldn’t have expected him to by now).
I’m not sure what the point of this hypothetical is. The results are clearly not good!
TB might be a terrible bust. Angeli might stink too. Minchey might not be as good as this article seems to say. If those come true, TR is a terrible recruiter and the QB room would be a demonstrable mess.
I’m not sure what the point of this hypothetical is.
Please, please, please look at what has already happened with our QB room, not what might happen in the future.
That’s what I’m trying to suss out. What is so god awful about the QB room. It’s definitely not the best in football. But why do you keep saying it’s so bad? I’m just looking for an explanation, because I’m not seeing it. Seems to be no more than, Pyne stinks, TB might not be good, TR should have known that and should have brought in a transfer
My dude, we are starting a 5’8″ QB who can’t reliably throw a screen pass because our injury-prone starter got injured.
I don’t know what else to tell you. Your starting position on this seems to be that anyone who plays QB for Notre Dame is a good QB because they play for Notre Dame.
Yeah, that’s about as far as you can get from anything I said.
Your starting position seems to be if we don’t recruit Lawerence, Stroud, and Bryce Young in the same year and be the favorite to win the NC, the OC/QB coach stinks and needs to go.
You want TR to go. That’s fair. Sometimes you move on from a good coach for various reasons. See the Boston Bruins. But to say “well we have to! Drew Pyne stinks” just doesn’t seem to hold much water.
He’s brought in high level recruits. Pyne was a miss. 18 Stripes predicted that as a real possibility. Book was a hit, Coan was a hit, TB MIGHT be a hit. At what point can we accept that as “good”? Or at least not terrible?
Did they? The article posted above is awfully rosy and while you can say “we don’t need to explain that every prospect has a chance of missing”, that wasn’t really a predicted outcome
I think the quote that Eric posted from the original analysis of Pyne was pretty clear that there was a strong possibility that he wasn’t going to be a star QB
Book is not a TR recruit.
No but he’s a TR developed/coached recruit
Honest question — do you think there is, in the quality of college football quarterbacks, a middle ground between Drew Pyne and Caleb Williams?
I do. It’s essentially the same question, I’m asking you lol
What is the question?
Isn’t something short of Williams acceptable? And if TB ends up being as good as Book, say, doesn’t TR get credit for Book, Coan, TB? Isn’t that a fairly good alternative if you assume the expectation isn’t Lawrence, Stroud, Williams? Or is that your expectation of TR?
Is something short of Williams acceptable? Yes, acceptable. Not what the goal should be.
If Buchner ends up being as good as Book? We have no idea if that’s going to happen. Hell, we have no idea if Buchner is going to be healthy to play that many games. Let’s cross that bridge when we come to it, and instead deal with what has actually happened in real life, in the real world, before our very eyes. I am begging people to engage in evidence-based thinking on this. Please. We have tons of it; Rees has been the QB coach for seven years.
My expectation of Tommy Rees is recruiting and developing QBs at a level comparable to Southern Cal and Ohio State, yes. That is the type of program we aspire to be. That is the type of salary he receives.
The expectation in your last paragraph is fair enough. Is that reasonable, though, given the difficulties associated with recruiting at ND? Again, not asking rhetorically. I’m honestly interested in your opinion on that, as my guess is you’re more in tune with whether those difficulties are real or not (I am not an ND alum and have no particular insight into it – I just know it’s a popular trope)
Notre Dame is currently #3 in the recruiting rankings and expected to finish about #5 or #6 at worst, barring the unforeseen. Freeman’s biggest selling point was that the “difficulties associated with recruiting at ND” were more fiction than reality.
Fair enough. If that’s the case, then I don’t argue with your other points. We’re definitely not keeping pace with Ohio St, Bama, Clemson in terms of QB recruiting.
Yes, that is reasonable. We can recruit almost every other position at a top-10 level, and our overall recruiting has improved in the NIL era, thanks in large part to Freeman’s presence.
Fair enough.
And to look at the other side of things — ND has produced a boatload of NFL talent, especially at OL and TE. We do not have a single QB playing in the NFL right now. Why is that?
I feel like there was an article about this a few years ago (maybe when this was an OFD site) talking about how ND gets it’s class rankings from its OL and TE recruiting, which was the major issue – we weren’t at that same level with skill positions.
Technically Book is playing in NFL right now. He is 3rd string with the Eagles. But your overall point remains and is true.
I’m a real hater on this topic but no, because Book was never good enough to even threaten winning a playoff game, which is the level Notre Dame is supposed to be at
I’m down with that honesty right there. Appreciate that.
Happy Thanksgiving y’all
Team 18 Stripes: thanks for all that yous do for us 🤘🏽