We waited 2 weeks for that performance. Two weeks to watch Notre Dame fall on its face on the big stage. Again. We believed, and most of the country believed, that maybe this year was different. As was mentioned in the promo video leading up to the game, the Irish were just ‘built different.’
Clemson showed that with Trevor Lawrence back at quarterback and a few other starters back in the lineup, Notre Dame remains a healthy second tier below the elite teams in the country. At times, the future top NFL pick looked like he was toying with the Irish either firing precision passes, escaping pressure, or running through to the second level of the defense.
That old feeling of dread after watching the team being blown out in a big game is back again.
Stats Package
| STAT | IRISH | TIGERS |
|---|---|---|
| Score | 10 | 34 |
| Plays | 58 | 66 |
| Total Yards | 263 | 541 |
| Yards Per Play | 4.5 | 8.2 |
| Conversions | 3/13 | 9/15 |
| Completions | 20 | 25 |
| Yards/Pass Attempt | 7.8 | 8.2 |
| Rushes | 30 | 27 |
| Rushing Success | 27.2% | 62.5% |
| 10+ Yds Rushing | 3 | 6 |
| Defense Stuff Rate | 13.6% | 34.4% |
Things actually started out pretty well, remember!??
Notre Dame marched down the field but ran out of gas in the red zone only to turn around and pick off Trevor Lawrence on the first Clemson drive. A few minutes later the ball was on the Tiger 5-yard line with Notre Dame able to take a 10-0 lead. That did not happen and things turned dark really quickly for the remainder of the 1st half before things evened out a little bit over the final 2 quarters.
Offense
QB: C+
RB: C-
TE: B+
OL: D
WR: D+
We can talk about personnel but it was very clear that Brent Venables chewed up Tommy Rees and spit him out in this rematch. From my view he attempted the following and succeeded in each category:
1) Mix up coverages (I’m mostly guessing here but it would explain some of Book’s reluctance to throw at times) with new looks from the first meeting and forcing Book to throw into tight windows.
2) Keep Book contained in the pocket and force said tight throws.
3) Absolutely do not let Book hurt you while running the ball.
Three for three for Venables!
Notre Dame was moving the ball early on but things were hanging by a thread in a couple of ways. One, Book was sharp passing the ball there just wasn’t much explosiveness. Two, the run game was essentially shut down from the first snap. Look at the opening drive where Book is 4 of 4 for 49 yards but there were 4 unsuccessful runs (a bad snap included) and a sack on Book on 3rd down.
It was tough to watch at times. We know that this offense was built on its run game but it was interesting to watch Clemson go through long stretches where they ignored Travis Etienne in favor of tossing the ball all over the place. Of course, the advantage of having Trevor Lawrence, right?
However, Notre Dame seemed weirdly committed to running the ball when it didn’t need to do so. For example, they ran the ball 7 times on 2nd & long! Seven times! Kyren Williams’ 24-yard run on 2 & 8 was the only successful carry from those 7, by the way. In a game with only 58 offensive snaps that’s a whole lot of 3rd & long opportunities that Rees kind of schemed his way into for some reason.
Rushing Success
Williams – 4 of 15 (26.6%)
Book – 0 of 4 (0%)
Tyree – 1 of 1 (100%)
Davis – 1 of 1 (100%)
Flemister – 0 of 1 (0%)
Additionally, Kyren Williams was completely neutralized. Outside of his long run mentioned above he had 14 carries for 26 yards with 3 catches for 14 yards. Getting 18 touches and 64 total yards from your star running back is not going to work in these big games.
I’ve always said this offense works best when Book is involved and humming in the run game. That was completely denied by Clemson as Book had zero successful carries. We saw quite a bit of Bad Book (happy feet, reluctant to throw down field) in this game but I thought he played pretty well overall with what was happening around him.
This felt a lot like a “the receivers are who we thought they were” type of game. I don’t want to dismiss the development they made during the season. Still, outside of McKinley making one tough catch this was a very uninspiring effort. For the day, Notre Dame receivers had 9 receptions for 106 yards and I don’t believe any of the backups even saw a single target.
For their standards, this was a really poor performance from the offensive line. I do think they were stunted by some poor play-calling and not enough difference makers that put the offense in a small box with a small chance for success. However, Clemson won so many battles up front and the line wasn’t able to execute on the ground in a way that Notre Dame thought it could which is disappointing. You simply can’t give up 10 tackles for loss in a big game and hope to out-score your opponent.
Clemson essentially flip-flopped the huge rushing advantage Notre Dame enjoyed it the first game, only this contest didn’t go to double overtime.
Defense
DL: B-
LB: C-
DB: D
While Notre Dame was curiously conservative and running Williams into the line, Trevor Lawrence led Clemson in carries and threw 36 passes before exiting the game early. The modern game of football isn’t the same as what your grandfather watched as a kid.
The game completely turned over a combined 7 series between the teams in the first half in such brutal fashion for Notre Dame.
For Clemson they put up 303 yards on 27 plays (11.2 yards per play!) while scoring 24 points. Notre Dame only mustered 68 yards on 12 plays while turning the ball over on downs (Avery Davis’ dropped pass) and punting twice. The game looked competitive for a bit and suddenly Clemson was up 24-3 at halftime.
Trevor Lawrence really made such a big difference, almost to a comical level. Of course, Clemson didn’t match their overall passing yardage from the first meeting but they raised their yards per play by 2.1 yards on average. That’s just hilarious better efficiency centered around Lawrence’s ability to make plays, escape pressure, run away from defenders, and throw accurate bullets.
Here’s a sad statistic: Notre Dame had 6 successful runs all game long while Trevor Lawrence had 7 successful runs all by himself.
At the end of Clemson’s 3rd drive that made it 14-3 they were 6 for 6 on successful runs and I’m sure I wasn’t the only person who knew it was going to be a long day for this defense.
Stuffs vs. Clemson
JOK – 2
White – 1.5
Ogundeji – 1
Lewis – 1
Ademilola, Ja. – 1
Ademilola, Ju. – 1
Liufau – 0.5
Hinish – 0.5
MTA – 0.5
Plus, it’s not like they shut down Travis Etienne again. Clemson didn’t need to rely on their star running back all that much but he still had 8 successful carries from just 10 opportunities.
Clemson’s 8.2 yards per play was the 3rd worst mark surrendered by a Brian Kelly team behind 2011 Michigan and the 2014 bowl game versus LSU. I’m not sure this was a terrible performance by the Irish defense per se but I’m not going to argue with anyone who believe that it was such a debacle. They had multiple opportunities to make plays and could’ve had 5 more sacks of Lawrence if they finished and who knows how that changes the score?
Lawrence’s threat of running completely changed the calculus of defending Clemson, plus Notre Dame’s overall weakness in the secondary finally came home to bite them. None of this is completely shocking in the least bit.
Final Thoughts
It’s not difficult to overstate how much Notre Dame opened the game in a fashion that they really dreamed about with forcing a turnover against Lawrence and being able to hog the ball for over 11 minutes. To only come away with 3 points and get down on the scoreboard shortly thereafter had to be really demoralizing.
The final 2 drives in the 1st half from each team were just brutal for Notre Dame’s chances. The score is currently 17-3 and the following happens:
- The Irish open with an 11-yard completion to Tremble (great game from him, by the way) with a beautiful sideline catch but insert C’Bo Flemister for some reason and he loses 4 yards on 1st down after Tyler Davis abuses Josh Lugg.
- Next play, 6 players defend 4 Clemson rushers with ease, Book doesn’t pull the trigger, and runs for 3 yards. On third down, they check it down to Kyren who comes nowhere to close to the 1st down. Punt.
- Clemson false starts deep in their own territory, now backed up to their 7-yard line. Lawrence somehow escapes a sack from Ogundeji on 1st down that would’ve put the ball at the 1-yard line as he throws the ball away. Etienne flies through the hole for a solid 8-yard gain on 2nd down.
- On 3rd and long, Clemson tries a sprint draw but Jayson Ademilola swims past his man and is in perfect position. Etienne reverses field but safety D.J. Brown has come down to make the tackle. Instead, Lawrence has run out and blocks Brown. Etienne runs for the 1st down.
- Six plays later and Clemson still isn’t in field goal range with the half about to end. Lawrence spikes the ball on 3rd down (he made a mistake!) perhaps confused by the spot after an Etienne 9-yard run near the marker. On a read-option, Etienne out-runs Ogundeji to the edge, then flies past diving tackles from Drew White and Shaun Crawford. Three players in position to at least hold Clemson and force a field goal, instead Etienne takes it to the house and the Tigers lead 24-3 at halftime.
The 10 points scored for Notre Dame drops their season average down to 35.1 PPG which dips below last year’s school record. Barring something miraculous in the upcoming bowl season it’s unlikely this offense will finish above the 2019 record.
Welp.
We could start this in the bowl game but next year I’d like to see the team fair catch every single kick return and see what kind of difference it makes for scoring. The kick return game was pretty awful this year which is disappointing given Chris Tyree’s promise as a speed back.
Speaking of Tyree, it was interesting that he was given only 1 carry and he took it the house.
It’s going to be very fascinating to see what they do with the offensive line next year, especially if Aaron Banks leaves for the NFL. There is the thought that they’ll be fine as backups have been getting some quality experience this year but someone like Josh Lugg–who many believed was going to blossom and be an anchor for the future–has looked an awful lot like a true backup quality lineman.
Additionally to the OL for next year, it feels like this offense is going to need a huge breakout at the receiver position to remain a top 10 team.
This game only had 3 combined red zone trips. No one scored a touchdown on any of those trips. That just goes to show how important explosiveness and scoring on big plays can be for an offense.
It seems like in order to hang with the likes of Clemson and Alabama you need an offense that can walk on to the field with the ability to throw for 400 yards and score from anywhere on the field. I know that’s not super revelatory or anything. It’s just so, so hard to win any other way. Relying on 11-play drives and bullying your way into the end zone or having your quarterback scramble isn’t a good enough recipe for success against this level of competition. Watching last night’s SEC Championship and the quarterback’s combined for 826 yards on 83 passes with 9 total touchdowns. We may need 2.5 games against Alabama to get 400+ passing yards, and we may soon find out.
Does anyone want to talk about recruiting or lack thereof? Through the years I’ve made fun of the Trust the Staff™ moniker that’s been used so much when discussing the talent level in South Bend. I searched our comment section from the Early Signing Day article and ‘trust’ was brought up on 5 different occasions. Notre Dame can punch above its weight for a while but nothing will materially change in the post-season unless recruiting improves when the top 3 or 4 programs are hogging so much of the talent. That failure is something you can trust a whole lot more. We should expect these failures unless recruiting improves.
I was thinking as we’re anticipating a semi-final matchup with Alabama that I’m not sure we’ve ever had a game where everyone in the Notre Dame internet was in lockstep predicting a loss. Even in 2012, our whole staff got swept away and predicted a win against Alabama. Even in the really big games over the years where the Irish are solid underdogs and a loss is predicted here or elsewhere it always seems like at least 30% of fans think it’s going to be a victory. I have to think every single person in the world will think Notre Dame will lose to Alabama? Maybe that’s when we actually win the big game and reverse some weird cosmic jinx??
Couldn’t agree more about recruiting. I mean, look, I don’t want to shit on the guys who are choosing to come to ND for the next 3-5 years and put in orders of magnitude more work than I ever have for our football team, but the reality is that we aren’t gaining ground on the Alabamas and Ohio States of the world. LSU signs the 2nd and 3rd rated safeties in the class, we celebrate flipping a 3* guy from them. After losing out on Shipley to Clemson, we answer by taking a Michigan State commit. Again, I’m grateful that these guys are coming to ND, but this is not how you build a roster that can seriously contend for championships. Pull down a top 3 recruiting class before you start spouting off about boycotting the playoffs.
Alabama’s #1 class is insane this year. (6-5stars!!) The #2,5,7&9 WR’s!! Forget trying to compete with that.
ND signed a real good class but again, great players make great coaches. I don’t see how ND can change the way things stand right now.
JMO but, I like Estime better than Shipley. Bigger, stronger and as fast I think.
The staff at 247 has been pretending like this 2021 class was very good. It really wasn’t! 15(!) 3-stars. Below the 50% mark for the blue chip ratio (which is probably drifting up to 60% if you want to really compete for nattys these days). Any chance of high-level success is mostly dependent on a QB who didn’t play his senior season in high school and is ranked distinctly lower as a prospect than, e.g., Bo Nix.
It was a fine class. It was a big class. As I’ve said, we need to be even more aggressive about taking big classes and intentionally weeding people out. But, even so, that mainly just benefits depth. We also need more elite skill talent if there’s any hope of winning two playoff games.
Pete Sampson noted that, after this year, ND will likely have seven NFL draft picks in eight years from three stars. Three stars should be viewed as presumptively disappointing commitments.
Our class this year is just bigger than other years but we’ve hovered around the same average .90 in the Kelly era. This year is slightly lower. The difference is maybe we’ve kept some of highly recruited guys on the team (Keil, Neal, etc.).
I wouldn’t put too much stock in recruiting rankings this year. How does a kid move up if he isn’t playing? There’s at least 7-8 kids in this class that were in that boat. The class right now is #8. It’s a good class.
That’s true as far as it goes, but the problem with it is (a) that applies to everyone else too and (b) it cuts both ways. That is, it’s just as likely that our highly rated recruits are overrated as our lower rated recruits are underrated.
The “trust the coaches” thing for our 3-stars is also only as true as far as it goes, which is not very far: seven 3-star draft picks in eight years, and that’s assuming Book gets drafted, which might be generous. Of course we hit with 3-stars, but there are very few JOKs. The 3-star hits mostly end up being like Drew White or MTA, who are among the better players on our defense but would be like the 8th or 9th best starters on a truly elite defense (they’re day-3 draft picks at best).
We really do need to recruit better than our current class if we want to have a real shot at breaking into the tier(s) above us. And we should be recruiting better now than ever, and it doesn’t seem like it.
Looking at the teams ranked ahead of us right now on 247, I don’t how much better we could do. Standards would have to change at ND for that to happen. Mike Goolsby talks about it on the Blue and Gold postgame podcast last night. (He was in a sour mood) You can find it on You Tube.
Correct. I mean ND only seriously recruited Shipley of the 2021 five stars. I can’t imagine that is because they’re lazy or trying to avoid the five stars…The sheer problem is that a lot of those guys just aren’t fits for Notre Dame and/or Notre Dame isn’t a fit for them and not much traction even starts with like 49/50 of the best players every year.
Unfortunately there’s only so many Jaylon’s and Hamilton’s and Nelson’s out there who check all the boxes and are also interested in ND. You look at like Bama or tOSU or LSU when Joe Burrow is saying he really doesn’t know about how LSU students are because he only did online classes and it’s like those teams are just in a different world. Certainly different rules.
If this is true, than the ND program is essentially dead. I don’t think it’s true.
Taking a quick glance, I think at least half of the Top 20 recruits are fits at Notre Dame to one degree or another.
I do think it’s really difficult to understand why a program doesn’t recruit better without being behind the scenes. And I don’t want to dismiss the difficulties of recruiting to Notre Dame. But, Kelly & Co. for whatever reason do not recruit to their fullest capabilities, in my opinion.
I hope you are right Eric. Like you say it’s hard to know without being on the inside. Because this is the biggest difference between ND and the other elite programs. They get those elite 5 stars (at Non-OL/TE positions) EVERY YEAR. We celebrate to get one of those every 7 years.
Jaylon Smith was our last non-OL/TE 5 star!
Actually even besides Smith (and Redfield = same year), our only only 5 star in that time period is Mayer where the other teams get multiple 5 stars every year!
We *could* make up for it by recruiting mostly 4 stars and few 3 stars but we don’t do that either.
lol since 2013 we had have 3 – 5 stars.
In that same time-frame:
Alabama: 40 LOL
Clemson: 20 (and they’ve picked up more since 2018)
OSU: 25 (and they’ve picked it up since 2017)
so if we did it just from 2016 – we have 1
Bama: 24
Clemson: 16
OSU: 20
n.b. Georgia: 26 (they had 7! in one year) so it’s not enough to just recruit 5 stars apparently.
I’m sure we could break it down to include top 100 players or some such thing where we’d do better, but you want to close the gap, we literally should try to start with just *1* 5 star every year – that would have been 6! for us. Whereas these programs are averaging(!) almost 3-5 PER YEAR.
To fully close the gap (i.e. to even be CLOSE) we should be getting 2 five stars every year.
Interesting input, I do agree that what goes on behind the scenes is a lot of the missing piece of the puzzle. If Notre Dame could recruit/talk to 10 five stars a year a little more than what they do now (i.e. pretty much sounds like they sent some snail mail to DJ Uiagalelei and that was it), then that’s a big red flag on Kelly’s operation.
Kelly talked about wanting/wishing he had QB’s like Uiagalelei and Lawrence, which I found ironic since he didn’t offer either a scholarship. Perhaps there is more that ND can do as far as trying to get more traction with a higher number of elite recruits, but I don’t know.
Feels like their batting average in that realm of trying to get 5* away from the powerhouses is going to be low. I.e., Shipley couldn’t have been recruited harder and still went to Clemson. If Rees and Taylor invested all that time in Edwards instead of Shipley, do they build the relationship that Gattis built with Edwards and win his commitment? Maybe, maybe not, but to me I think that’s a big focus of why ND isn’t swinging for the fences and instead concentrating on more likely cultural/program fits rather than recruit the absolute best players.
So ND goes all in on Shipley, maybe costing them Edwards, though that’s questionable. Then they sign the #12 back in the country. Pretty good recruiting, I’d say.
It’s pretty good, but the problem is it’s not great. Notre Dame scrambles to flip the #12 RB. Clemson signed the #9 RB AND the #1 APB in Shipley.
That’s where the damage piles up when teams like Clemson sign 2 better recruits than ND at the same position in the same year. And unfortunately that happens all the time and all over the field (besides maybe OL and TE)
What are you going to do? Do you know that the #9 back is better than the #12 ? Because #12 (7th) is ranked ahead of #9 (8th) on Rivals. Point is who knows which one’s better? Estime is hardly taken from the scrap heap…. Watching both guys film, Estime is better than Shipley too. (IMO) Bigger, stronger, just as fast. Hopefully he’s really good.
Same with Buchner. There’s higher rated QB’s but this kid looks to have all the tools. He needs to be a hit.
Point is ND is not going to get top 5 classes. Not right now. If we can stay in the top 10, I’ll be happy. As I’ve said there’s not much difference between 7 & 10.
I don’t disagree with any of that, but it’s not what I’m trying to say here. The problem is that whether you’re #7 or #10, you’re going to get laughed off the field playing one of the top 3 teams in the country, which is the bigger point.
So how does Notre Dame combat that? Do they try to swing for the fences for Shipley and have an opportunity cost at making in-roads at players like Edwards? I think that’s a good strategy. But the problem is ND is losing guys like Shipley to Clemson, and Clemson is still signing a better RB than ND does on top of that.
In a nutshell that just points out the problem. As ND fans we can be happy or believe in the film of the ND recruits, but I’m talking more big picture as to how can ND improve in general and start competing with Clemson by bringing in similar talent.
And I’m saying ND is not going to get top 5 classes, certainly not top 3. You’re banging head head against the wall hoping so. More of that goes to the Alabama’s etc.. than should be blamed on ND.
“Clemson is still signing a better RB than ND does on top of that.” Rivals doesn’t think so. I just had to point that out again.
If so, contending for national championships is cooked, and Notre Dame’s best bet is 2012 or 2018 or 2020 to beat rivals but then get humiliated by the best teams.
Also, I don’t concede that Notre Dame can’t be top 3 or top 5 in recruiting on a consistent basis. Isn’t that basically the neighborhood Weis was in for a couple of years? Not that his operation or outfit totally had it right but he’s shown that it is feasible. ND isn’t going to be a full football factory and just crank out 1-2-3 every single year, I don’t expect that. But I do think they should be striving to be closer to 5th than settling for 8-9-10. We see the results when that happens, and it isn’t pretty and just doesn’t measure up.
I also find it curious how and why Kelly has public comments about to wanting to improve recruiting, yet doesn’t follow up by meaningfully actually improving the recruiting.
None of us have any idea what might have changed in our recruiting this year if not for COVID-19. I completely subscribe to the theory that ND needs to get kids on campus more than most schools do, and taking that away for what will end up being well over a year is a disaster.
It doesn’t mean this year wasn’t still a bit of a disappointment in recruiting, because it was. But I think that has to be included in the discussion.
Weis recruited at a top 5 level with consistency, under an administration was was very similar to what we have today, and in the places where it is different it has drifted towards being more accommodating.
But putting that aside, you’re arguing with a strawman. From the 2017 through 2021 classes we’ve signed 2 composite top-50 players out of 250 available. That’s as many as Nebraska. In that same time Stanford has signed 5. 5. Are we that much more handicapped in our recruiting than Stanford? UCLA has signed 3. We’ve signed 1 more than Mississippi State. 1 more than Maryland.
We’re not talking about beating Alabama and Clemson every year in recruiting here, I’m just looking for some kind of a pulse. Our on the field results are 2nd tier nationally, somewhere around Oklahoma, but we recruit like we’re a middle of the road ACC team. I just can’t buy that this is the best we can do given the success we’ve had on the field.
I don’t remember Weis winning any championships or the Fiesta Bowl vs OSU, which I attended and watched us get blown up again. I also don’t recall anything like the Bama, Clemson, OSU depth and breadth of elite talent under Weis. I suspect the clas ranking was skewed.
a good for instance is that Clausen and Christ were supposedly both #1 QBs in their classes. One was a good but not great player at ND, the other was a bust.
I’m curious but I suspect there’s usually not a ton of movement among the Top 100-150 prospects and certainly among the Top 30-50 prospects each cycle.
It’s possible this crazy 2021 cycle brought about a lot more movement (I don’t think it did from what I can tell) or maybe it really locked in the rankings much more than usual (I think it probably did).
Either way, ND would’ve had to properly target kids early at a better clip than other programs and close the gap for many of these high schoolers who didn’t get to play as seniors.
I respect your opinion, but the issue is, the vast majority of them (the true elite skill game changers) do NOT want to come here. It’s beyond question at this point.
I think Kelly has done an incredible job within the ND constraints. I’m not sure anyone could do better. Maybe Saban, Dabo or Urban could do better based on their brands, but without the university changing not just entrance standards but the strictness of the classroom and discipline regimes, I’m doubtful.
I don’t know if we went after Trevor Lawrence, but he seems like a kid who’s smart, articulate, high character. He would appear to me to be a fit. I doubt he gave us a thought. And he’s the type athlete we need to get, and in that specific position.
There has to be a reason ND has trouble landing the Elite kids. I just don’t believe that Kelly can’t or won’t try to sell the school or program. I think there are roadblocks or hurdles that make it much more unlikely that ND lands 5stars. My guess is at least half of the top 30 players you can scratch off the list right away. Either because they can’t get in or they wouldn’t even think of trying to. How many of our best recruits (Johnson) never see the field as freshman because the word is they’re making the adjustment to college life? The academic hurdles (admissions, class work) at ND are a real thing IMO.
This was a thing back in the 80’s and ND lowered the bar some, when Holtz came in. As I’ve mentioned, Mike Goolsby talks about in a recent B&G podcast. He puts much of it on the administration.
As ND fans we have to deal with it or stop being a fan.
You don’t think it’s possible Kelly isn’t a great recruiter nor has set up a program culture that makes recruiting at a higher level more difficult?
Man, that seems like the most obvious reason to me.
The roadblocks and hurdles have been a reason/excuse for 100 years, that’s nothing new. Maybe we could argue in today’s game those hurdles make it more unlikely for Notre Dame to sign a string of Top 3 classes but do we really believe it’s impossible now to sign the 4th best class or thereabouts with some consistency?
I’m honestly shocked that we can sign the 11th best class after back-to-back-to-back-to-back 10+ win seasons and people think, “Yup, this is the best we can do in recruiting.”
Charlie Weis pulled in a #2 recruiting class in 2008. Completely agree with you, BK just doesn’t want to recruit that way (or can’t). He’s a great player development guy, but player development just isn’t going to beat the best teams without a ton of luck.
Weis must have been even worse than we thought as a coach then, wouldn’t you say?
id say that, plus the rankings are just guesses and ND used to get the benefit of the doubt back then.
Yes, Weis was a terrible coach.
Yes, agreed, Weis was absolutely terrible, and he broke the program in a way that is truly shocking. What Brian Kelly has done to turn this thing around exceeded my wildest expectations for a coach coming from Cincinnati. I was not please with his hire at the time, and I questioned it for quite a while. Now, with the benefit of hindsight, I think quite possibly the only coach who could have done better would have been Urban Meyer. And while his on the field results have been incredible, to me, it would not have been worth the off the field trouble.
That doesn’t mean that there isn’t room for Kelly to grow this program still. He’s shown that he might possibly the best coach in the country at developing talent (I’d put Dabo above him personally, but I would have no qualms if someone objected). I don’t think BK needs to beat Bama/Clemson/OSU at recruiting to win a National Title. But he needs to step it up one more notch in recruiting to be able to win one in this modern era of football. If you don’t have an elite college QB, paired with at least 1 game changing WR, I just don’t see how you win back to back playoff games against the likes of Alabama and Clemson. And while I’m excited for Kevin Austin and I’m excited for Tyler Buchner, if we took the two of them at their likely peaks into the playoffs this year, they would still be the 4th best pair of QB/WR in the playoffs. That’s just such an incredibly steep hill to climb in order to win it all.
The roadblocks/hurdles excuse is a real thing and has varied in the last 100 years.(Zorich, Rice) As far as the culture hurting recruiting. You’d have to explain to me what that would be. If you’re talking about expectations off the field. Yes, that’s real too and not all on Kelly. I just don’t think it’s realistic to expect any coach to get ND into the Top 5 when the ground rules are different. And they are different. We haven’t even mentioned climate or distance.
The difference between being in the top 3 in recruiting and 7th or 8th is much greater than between #7 and #11. I truly don’t think there’s much you can do about getting to 1-3.
Climate, distance, and all of that has been an issue for decades and ND has recruited at a very high level with those constraints in place anyway.
In the past, Notre Dame has hurt itself by making it more difficult to recruit, and sometimes opened the door to make it easier.
Are we not in an era currently when the school and administration is as friendly to the program, perhaps ever?
Support from the school seems off the charts compared to even the late 1990’s: We’re fully in the arms race, they’ve spent hundreds of millions on facilities upgrades, taken a pretty large pro-player turn with accommodations (off campus housing, Gug amenities, etc.), provided training table and top-notch strength & conditioning help, and effectively killed off the long arm of Res Life.
If we’re talking ‘ground rules’ it’s never been easier at Notre Dame!
Now, I think the biggest issue is if the school itself is far more difficult academically (and maybe culturally) now than it was 30 or 40 years ago?
I’d argue yes, and that’s a big reason why it’s unrealistic to expect signing the top class in the country on a regular basis without massive success on the field, while massive success on the field takes that level of recruiting, and round and round we go.
But, I don’t think it’s asking too much for ND to start recruiting better. Consistently better classes aren’t impossible because it’s just too hard on little old ND, and if we did recruit better than we’d inch closer to being even better on the field and maybe someday being able to recruit and steal players from the top dawgs consistently.
See my other post just now. After Iowa State, BK seemed really ready to “just try harder” (which magical element seems central to your expressed hope and desire). Maybe he can’t, just doesn’t have “it” but I double down on the crucial need to get players and families on campus — if only to make the academic challenge seem doable, and worth while. So, go vaccines, and… wait till next year!
The pandemic does make it more difficult to assess, but really that’s also a good thing.
The Athletic had a really great article anonymously interviewing coaches, the SEC teams HATE this dead period, they can’t show off their facilities and all. The MAC programs love it, they can use zoom calls to highlight the better lights of their experience and feel like it’s helping to even the playing field. Not that ND is a MAC team, but if you’re a southern kid who can’t take a visit to northern Indiana in, say, fall/winter, you might not be turned off by the cold.
So in that light, pandemic/virtual recruiting might offer ND some advantages if they pressed it, though I would agree the appeal of campus and not being able to see Notre Dame probably hurts. But still, there are plenty of top players they signed that have never even visited campus.
The bigger question to me is how is Brian Kelly in 2019 going to say (paraphrased) “we want to recruit better and get top 5 classes” and then really Notre Dame only has meaningful contact or makes an effort to recruit exactly 1 five star for the 2021 class? (Shipley, who they could not convince to sign, albeit can’t knock the effort).
That to me is the big discrepancy and missing piece. They have the stated desire to do better. Yet, they’re not taking the steps needed to do better. It’s intriguing but frustrating to see that happen.
“and then really Notre Dame only has meaningful contact or makes an effort to recruit exactly 1 five star for the 2021 class?”
This is simply inaccurate. You can say they didn’t make inroads but, not that they didn’t make an effort.
Who else did they seriously recruit or court? Who did they offer? I don’t think it’s inaccurate, Pete Sampson has basically said as much several times. Notre Dame is not casting a wide net at the top 50-100 players right now.
Or, if they do, it would be like DJ Uiagalelei said, they sent some snail mail but never really much followed it up, so he never grew to have interest in ND because ND never showed much interest in him. Compare that to Clemson having QB coach Ben Streeter facetime him, establish a relationship, recruit him, get him to a camp and then it was all over.
So perhaps our definition of “effort” may vary, but sending a kid a piece of mail in 2020 is not effort in my books. It’s going through the mildest of the motions. If you can have examples of ND actually recruiting or working on a 5-star in 2021 not named Shipley (which I credit them for throwing the kitchen sink at), then please share.
Nolan Rucci for one. Were thought to be in final 5. Egbuka? WR from wash for two.
Ok, so that’s 3 of the top 50 that Notre Dame made any sort of serious effort or got traction with? That is my point, that is the problem. Whether it’s Kelly’s fault or the school standard’s fault or just that the kids aren’t that interested is a different debate as to WHY there is a problem.
The first step is pointing out that the problem that ND isn’t recruiting enough elite talent exists. Trying to recruit 1 five star RB, 1 five star WR and 1 OT isn’t good enough (especially when they really only came close to getting one of them to commit, and failed to do that)…There isn’t being enough efforts done to target the elite.
Can’t do much about this class, but you know how many 5 stars (according to 247) even VISITED Notre Dame for the 2020 class? 1 (Mayer). There were 0 five star visits in the 2019 class.
I don’t think it controversial or inaccurate at all to point out that ND is not investing enough time or getting even footholds for the top 50-100ish players in the country right now. That’s just the way it is, for whatever various reasons that we want to assign value to as for why it is that way.
The nuance here is that the visit to the campus is not just about how lovely it is, nor just about the great new facilities we have managed. That latter point is admittedly just the same as for the SEC, etc. The ND piece that had just been rounding into shape was the sustained pitch from key faculty and staff — and players already here — about the academics. That is what we could not do because ofCOVID-19 and which the other big P5 institutions don’t need to do.
Ok, but consider that the top kids gravitate TO the elite programs, with their brand name coaches and light academics and ridiculously low discipline standards. They see their chances of playing without the risk of academic or disciplinary disqualification very high elsewhere.
Remember the Frozen Five? Think that helps us recruit? That was under Kelly not so long ago.
Is the ND administration as friendly to (lenient with) the program as the administrations at Alabama, Clemson, Ohio State, Oklahoma, LSU, Florida?….No.
That the issues have been around always doesn’t discount them from being issues.
The key in recruiting for ND is evaluating talent around the country. They can’t afford to miss and they need to find the sleepers.
But, I just explained how it can’t be any worse today than it has been in the past from ND’s side of things AND plus teams in the 1980’s were arguably far dirtier (when the Irish were recruiting No. 1 classes) than anything Alabama and Clemson are doing today.
This excuse doesn’t explain Notre Dame’s recruiting struggles.
Disagree in part. The exception to the slide into Tier 2-dom was of course the Holtz Vinny golden era. But that was precisely when we had relaxed standards — which got tightened back up. And recruiting fell back down.
But the standards today aren’t all that dissimilar to the standards during the Cerrato years.
The administration has been completely transparent and helpful for Notre Dame going on 15 to 20 years now.
Disagree on the standards level and in general.
When you add it all up ND is at a disadvantage.
Actually, I think one can make the case (to support your points) that the administration has become more helpful in the last years. One can credit that to BK and the AD, IMO. But helpful how? By all accounts, by early assistance with whether recruit X can meet the admission standards; and especially by being super great and open with the recruits. But, to what end? To help us recruit the RKGs, the program fits. The University has become very resistant to recruiting those who might not fit. And that has devolved into character and attitude fits. Which eliminates the 3 and done and don’t make me really have to work hard athlete right from the outset. Which makes for very high character kids that honestly I tend to like a lot, based on how they come across. Better than some of Ara’s tremendous athletes t hat I knew, but I digress! But which automatically sets the bar higher.
Which to me btw explains BK’s “disastrous” pitch about the Rose Bowl. Family is absolutely huge with our recruits.
To the issue of the Cerratto years — the difference with him was that for a few years, admissions standards were significantly lowered (by way of waivers, etc.). There is a lot written about that.
Maybe…….Notre Dame doesn’t assess program fits all that well? Specifically, in this case Notre Dame being Brian Kelly and staff?
This was the narrative 2-3 years ago exactly. Kelly tried recruiting more top talent when he first arrived, it didn’t always work out, so they pivoted to more “program fits.”
Then, many people and BK himself even admitted it was time to do better. It’s been a while and it hasn’t been better.
The timing is an issue here. You’ve been very consistent in pointing the finger at BK being a good not great recruiter, for years. His own statements about how tough it was and how there was a level they couldn’t get past bore you out, IMO. But then came his famous epiphany, around the Iowa State game. At that point, I was OK let’s see… but then came COVID19 which I have been trying to make a case was uniquely problematic for ND. Hence why I am not quite there with “It’s been a while and it hasn’t …” etc.
It’s not just a one year thing, though. As evidenced by Kelly’s epiphany. Absolutely, many people want to give ND a pass this year because of Covid. Fine, I don’t really disagree.
Let’s see what happens in the future.
I think you’re bending over backwards to ignore the obvious.
Yep, all correct, Noise. And much of the damage started when we were in school under Hesburgh. It waxed and waned over the years since, but the fact is if you think you can earn millions playing football, why risk that by coming to ND, when the other programs assure you that you won’t have any problem staying qualified? Which is exactly what they do.
Surely you jest?
I can remember the complaints, in those years, from the alumni in Blue and Gold Illustrated about ND lowering their standards.
Yeah, it’s a catch 22, isn’t it?
Well, it hasn’t been 100 years, to be fair. Joking.
Now to be serious, part of the program culture is out of Kelly’s hands and you must know that, Eric. The university dictates a huge swath of that culture with its academic standards (you WILL go to class and pass legitimately) and discipline standards ( you will NOT get in trouble). Not saying that is bad, but it’s not what Kelly is competing against.
USC won championships and a Heisman with a culture of looking the other way.
FSU under Fisher had actual thugs and criminals playing and won the NC and Heisman.
Do the players at OSU even attend class?
Elite players who don’t care about the education and think they’ll play on Sunday make different choices. It’s even worse in basketball with the whole one and done travesty.
Wasn’t it Joe Burrow admitted he took all his classes on line? Do you think that flies at ND?
To be fair, Book probably wasn’t in many classes this year and due to Covid may not have even left his apartment all season either 🙂
There wasn’t covid when Burrow was not going to class.
What you did is called sophistry, Eric.
The rest of the country aren’t just thugs who can’t read and won’t go to class. This type of hyperbole isn’t helpful and is probably the worst of excuses.
ND doesn’t have to start wooing criminals to recruit better. This is absurd.
When did I say woo criminals? But be honest, what was FSU when they had Jameis Winston and a bunch of players the school and local cops kept out of jail?
I don’t think you’re being objective about the environment we compete in.
Saying that we’re saying “they’re thugs!” is putting words in our mouths. Ian Book has graduated, so please don’t compare that to Burrow taking all on line courses. Others here have cited things that have been disproven and then just kept citing them as true. We’ve cited REAL reasons and you’ve called them excuses.
I guess people do that when they don’t have strong counter arguments.
Yes, you’ve cited real reasons why it’s hard for Notre Dame to recruit. And I agree with those reasons!
Where we differ is that I think Notre Dame can overcome those difficulties with the right pieces and leadership while also having the opportunity to do so in the future. When you disagree with that, then yes you’re providing excuses.
People have been making this excuse for decades and Notre Dame has proven them wrong before.
It’s quite possible ND never truly gets back to the promise land, but I refuse to accept that right now with how well Notre Dame is being run and doing all the things correctly to some day get back to the top.
Well spoken — all. This is a century old dilemma for ND. I remember when I was little my dad and uncle arguing vigorously with our parish priest (CSC) about the role of football at the university, and the tradeoffs. This was right after the Leahy era when Terry Brennan was ND’s RKG — but it turned out, not a Tier One coach. Wash and repeat.
BTW — it is truly hard to get a Tier One coach, and when you add in being a fit for ND, that may be the showstopper preventing us to get to where Eric — and I dare say all of us on this site — want to go. Urban would not be a fit here, Saban neither. Dabo might (I am probably opening myself up for that). But he would never want to be here. Otherwise, that incredible blend of the Right Stuff that Eric hopes against hope can take ND back to the top will be a crap shoot. You never know until they get here. And even then they will struggle with the environment and ND’s built in constraints. Ara did, Lou certainly did, BK has grown into the constraints. But he seems just a tad under the Right Stuff level, and not just in recruiting.
Anyway — I honestly love the character of this team — so far, I should say. The next ten days will be the true test. Can they keep up their fighting spirit, and will themselves to a level to at least give the Death Star a game? It will be a tough test,
Finally, I hope I am in line to paste in this link, from the Advent daily Visit to ND’s “sacred places” — this is one of the best ones, and I have to say, I am proud we have young men like this in our ranks.
.
December 19
Whether reasons or excuses they are justified. Us agreeing on the outcome doesn’t change that.
Are you saying ND needs better leadership? Because I’m scared to death about who follows Swarbrick and Kelly.
No, just figure out a way to recruit better. We have so much infrastructure in place and with this leadership we just have to do better on that front.
Honest question cause I don’t follow closely enough, how is Tommy Rees as a recruiter? I feel like our 28 year old OC who went to ND should be everywhere. Plus he’s got a little street cred from the whole police incident (can’t remember sarcasm font)
He seems fine to good, as a recruiter.
I hope they do. I think it much more likely they find success by looking for undervalued players. Put efforts and $$ into beating the bushes to find these kids. That seems to be part of the plan and I’m interested to see how it turns out. I’m not talking about rolling the dice on kids. Hire people that are good talent evaluators. Set up a network of scouts if you have to. Find more players that turn out be finds like JOK than finds like Danny Spond.
Are we talking about Notre Dame or Northwestern?
🙂
But seriously, any good program should be doing both–finding hidden gems and chasing the blue-chips.
Of course. I think that’s what they’re trying to do with increased emphasis on beating a bigger field to find good players, while not giving up on the top guys. Just realizing that there are only so many 5 stars to around. No one had Kollie ranked where he is now. In the spring no one was doing hand stands over him. There’s quite a few kids in this class that I think will surprise. I don’t think it’s going to be just good luck when it happens.
If it helps there are 9 five stars on ND’s prospects board on 247 for 2022.
If we’re talking just strictly recruiting and not everything else with the job, there’s absolutely several other coaches throughout the country who could do a better job at recruiting than Kelly.
Heck, Kelly has recruited better not that long ago!
It’s a good argument whether any of this really matters about what fans say or do but we should absolutely be setting the bar a lot higher in recruiting than what we are seeing today.
I think the obvious point is that Bama/Georgia/Ohio State are recruiting at near historic levels and that’s hurting Notre Dame and it’s not so much what we’re doing wrong. However, there are still gaps in recruiting that the Irish–with their present success on the field–should absolutely be closing.
You point out Kelly’s better recruiting in the past….Do you think Aaron Lynch and Max Redfield helped BK in regards to admissions?
So I guess the bottom line is do we believe Kelly is all in on bringing in any highly rated recruit he can sign and is only limited by the choices of the players and the administration, or is Kelly going after some guys less than 100% because of “fit”? On the one hand we have the comments after Iowa State, on the other hand we have Kelly talking mentioning fit a million times.
I think your question is confused. Fit is mainly admissions and the administration and what they demand. Players that don’t fit end up not playing anyways. That helps Kelly not at all.
From what I hear Kelly say, I think Bill Rees is charged with considering fit so I guess I’ll just say – rather than ask – that I think the staff is policing themselves regarding fit over and above admissions/administration.
I think they do it pre “admissions/administration” to not waste time on players they can’t get in. No sense spending weeks recruiting a player only to find out he has no intention of ever taking a calculus or language course so that he can get admitted.
I think this year’s team had overall better talent on both sides of the ball than we’ve had in years, so I don’t think Kelly’s doing worse now than he used to do.
I have to put a lot of Book’s hesitancy to throw on his WR’s. The Davis drop being a perfect example. What the hell was he doing? He was about to run out of bounds instead of slowing down some. Book’s throw looked to be behind him but, that was on Davis. Too often when Book has bought time, no one seems to know how to find open space. I truly don’t understand how no one is open after 6-7 seconds.
It can not be overstated how much ND missed Patterson, or how much Clemson loved having Davis back. We had a 3rd stringer playing center.
As far as recruiting. In last nights game the highest rated WR, TE, RB, were on ND. The Oline has more highly rated players too. Defense is a different story but the game changer is the QB.
I agree with just about all of that, Tindma. I think the critical problem on offense last night was that our receivers for the most part could not get any separation, which put enormous pressure on Book and the Oline. And set up the run game to be shut down. I’m not sure which ratings you’re referring to, but there is no runner on our team In Etienne’s class, although Williams has definite potential. Put another way, I doubt that Williams would have started at Clemson this year. Not a knock on him, just he’d have had to bide his time and develop. On the receivers though, other than Mayer, and Tremble more as a blocker than receiver, our guys aren’t in the Clemson class, regardless of ratings out of HS. Many of the tv shots were from above and behind our offense, and as Herbstreit pointed out repeatedly, nobody open anywhere. Oline held as long as they could, but the Clemson rush almost always was disciplined and contained Book from scrambling guys open. On the few times he had long scrambles, time wise, they still didn’t get open. Davis’ goof was critical I think. That might have been a difference maker. I doubt we’d have won, but the score may have ended up respectable. The talent differential at the elite level cannot be overstated. Clemson has had a string of elite QBs, (Boyd, Watson, Lawrence) and when Lawrence was out, the #1 QB in the class took his place for two weeks. Two five star freshman dlinemen filled in for injured starters. We complain about Austin and Lenzy, who haven’t exactly proven anything on the playing field, yet Clemson loses Ross for the year, a guy that is in the DaVonte Smith class, and a bevy of other receivers make our DBs look silly. Watching Bama and Florida last night, I don’t think we can beat either. Both have truly elite QBs and receivers, and Bama has Harris at RB and Robinson as his backup to complement them. I’m not looking forward to the Bama game. More of the same coming, I think. We are a very good football program, but we are not elite. and won’t be. In 2000, I reluctantly concluded we’d never win another NC. The last 20 years have supported that conclusion. Unless ND changes it’s approach, which I sincerely doubt will happen in my lifetime, we will never get the cream of the crop athletes at the most critical positions. It starts with truly elite QBs. What would ND have done with Mayfield, Murray, Lamar Jackson, Burrow, Lawrence, Tua, Watson, Mahomes etc? then you have to have speedburner receivers who can catch, like Bama’s Smith, Waddle and the series of guys before them, a bunch of guys from Clemson and tOSU, or that #1 for Florida last night. And RB’s who can dominate games, like Dobbins, Elliott, Henry, Harris, Edwards-Helair (sp?) etc. Plus great lines. All at the same time. Year after year. why… Read more »
If you click read more the paragraphs will separate guys.
I hear you. Let me ask you this. If this team had a healthy Patterson, Will Fuller and Julian Love, how much better do you think our odds would be.
I doubt that we’d have been blown out, it would have been competitive. But we don’t seem to get that trio caliber on the same team, along with all the others we need.
I really respect Book, but Lawrence is another level. Clemson could have scored more in the 4th quarter.
Good question though.
Asked to gauge how far away we really are. All else being equal and say Buchner, Johnson and Colzie are the real deal , maybe we give the elite a run for their money??
Alabama has four WR recruits ranked higher than Colzie. And signed a much higher-ranked QB recruit than Buchner last year.
We’re falling further behind with classes like our 2021 class.
Yup see my comment above about how far we are behind with five stars. It’s insane.
Every team in the country has fallen further behind Alabama with the class they’ve signed this year. There is no answer for what they’re doing in recruiting. Deal with it.
That’s silly.
if we did it just from 2016 – we have 1 5 star.
Bama: 24
Clemson: 16
OSU: 20
n.b. Georgia: 26
We don’t have to match Bama – or Georgia, but we need to close the gap.
Instead of 1 5 star over the last 6 years, we needed to get 1-2 each year – having 6-12 5 stars instead of 1 would be a *huge* upgrade even if it would still only be half of what Bama has. That’s not an unreasonable task for a major program getting at least 10 wins most years. And at any rate, it’s what is necessary to compete with these guys.
It’s silly ….no it’s scary. You tell me that 5 or so programs are grabbing half of the 30 best kids. Now ND has to fight for the maybe 5 left that can get into ND or haven’t dreamt of going to local State U. with every other school in the nation ? good luck.
yea well either you have to find a way to get one or two of those guys or you have to resign yourself to 2nd tier status.
I think they try to do that but, it’s an uphill battle and the odds (#s) don’t favor much success.
I would love to see that, but we’ve not hit on the supposed sure thing QB’s we’ve recruited. Clausen, Christ, Wimbush, Keil etc were not.
The real, “real deals” almost all make a huge impact as freshmen, unless another real deal is ahead of them. Burrow was an interesting exception. His first year at LSU, as a transfer from I think OSU, was not terribly notable. Then he exploded last year, mega nova exploded in fact.
This 1000x: “It can not be overstated how much ND missed Patterson“
The folks wondering post-Syracuse whether that was the peak of the BK era might have had a point 🙁
Then again, is the program really in a better place than in 2018? ND is now 9th in SP+, and is closer in that metric to Wisconsin (#16) than to Florida (#4). Any recruiting improvements compared to a few years ago are nitpicky, and our early 2022 recruiting prospects looks shockingly mediocre given the multiple 10-win seasons in a row.
Kind of just seems like we’ve been treading water since 2017. It’s at a very good place relative to where this program has mostly been the last 25 years – you can safely put us in the Oklahoma/Florida tier now, below the Bama/Clemson and OSU/Georgia tiers. But also it feels like we’re a mile away from the elite, and if recruiting won’t improve it’s unclear how we’re going to get any closer.
I was one, but I think it’s fine if 10-0 in a pandemic and a 16 game winning streak is a high point, shortly after beating the #1 team in the country that’s also a heck of a high point! Not glorious, but it’s something.
“Kind of just seems like we’ve been treading water since 2017.”
Though the rest of your point expands more and I agree, it’s worth also acknowledging that they’ve made the playoffs in 2018 and 2020. That’s better than a lot of teams. I do agree ND is basically at like the Oklahoma level and clearly well-behind the true elite. But there’s something to be said about being one of the few programs to have multiple CFP appearances, especially in this age where Clemson/Bama/tOSU monopolize so many of the spots.
Being good enough to make the playoffs is good. It’s not great, and maybe we’re all just killing time until they get a truly elite QB to take it up a notch. Otherwise, maybe this is the limit for Notre Dame in modern CFB.
It’s hard to say whether ND can ever get to the Alabamas or the Clemsons, but I do know they never will if they don’t get the chance. Be it Kelly, the coordinators, better talent development, some combo of all, we are getting the chance on a fairly consistent basis. As a fan base I guess we just have to hope that at some point some 5-star kids decide they’d rather get ND to the top than help Alabama and Clemson stay there. (And the coaches get them to come to that decision.)
Most likely, it’ll have to be the next coach that does that, because it just doesn’t seem like Kelly has that recruiting DNA.
I think that last point is definitely true. Kelly is what he is and that’s strong and admirable in many areas. But improving the talent/recruiting to compete against the elite just isn’t a part of that.
Andy, I don’t think elite players expecting to play Sundays
give a damn about “get ND to the top”.
it’s about the easiest path to the big money.
I cannot understand why BK won’t play Johnson. He couldn’t do any worse than any other WR. They need speed,
Obviously the coaches don’t agree with you. Let em know the next time you’re at practice.
True. It’s frustrating but Mayer is perhaps the most key receiver on the team right now. Tyree (usually) gets some touches. It’s easy to understand why they’re not playing Johnson, even if it’s also hard to accept. He’s just not as ready or as capable/competent as guys with 5 years of experience on him.
He’s probably not *that* good, at least as a true freshman.
Adjusting to college life and college football. This can be a large life style change for some of these kids. Be patient and wish him luck.
Really elite freshman receivers play immediately at Bama, Clemson, OSU, Texas, Oklahoma etc.
maybe he’s not as elite as we’d like to think?
It’s academics. It was mentioned on the II podcast today. It’s been no secret. Not the first that needed to get up to speed…. One of the recruiting issues? Maybe huh?
I agree—it’s the nut cutter for us.
From my perspective success at ND is a perennial ten win program that can be the underdog in the playoffs at the peak of five-year cycles. This year we’re a ten win team, despite only playing eleven, and an underdog in the playoffs.
So let’s Rally. We’ve got a chance to beat Alabama.
Our DEs aren’t good enough, our CBs aren’t good enough, our WRs aren’t good enough, and our QBs aren’t good enough to beat the top 3 teams more than once in a blue moon. Buchner maybe fixes the QB situation in 2 or 3 years. We maybe have the WR talent coming in, but they’re still just not on the level of Bama and Clemson. Our DEs and DBs just aren’t good enough, and I don’t see that changing anytime soon.
That isn’t to say this program isn’t in a good place. There is good to great depth at most positions. We aren’t losing to bad teams anymore, even when things go poorly (i.e. Louisville this year). We are in a place that is light years better than at any point during my sports watching lifetime.
But if you don’t have game changers at WR, QB, DE, and CB, I just don’t see how you beat the big boys without getting lucky. Alabama will likely bring in 3 WRs in their 2021 class that will be better than ANY CB we’ve brought in over the past 4 years. Our DEs are always “1 year away” and “getting lots of pressures that will turn into sacks” but never make that leap. It’s lots of fun to be great at recruiting O Linemen and TEs, but at the end of the day, those guys aren’t winning you championships in this era of football. Without explosive players on offense and havoc-makers on defense, we’ll always be 1 step behind the true big boys.
Exactly, see my comment that I just posted above about 5 stars. WOW.
Yall are just so eager to pack it in and give up. Enjoy your fandom. I’m not reading this negativity. I’ll read the articles, but you guys suck as fans.
Hey, that’s not nice!
Doesn’t being a fan entail being upset when your team gets rocked just as much as it entails trying to stay positive?
It’s also just being realistic and analytical (what do we need to do to compete with these guys).
LMAO if you can’t acknowledge that we aren’t as good as Clemson and Alabama, you’re just being delusional. I don’t see anybody here saying this wasn’t a fun season. I don’t see anybody here saying to fire Kelly or Rees. I don’t see anybody here saying Ian Book didn’t have an incredible, expectation-shattering season. I see a bunch of people disappointed that we aren’t quite as good as we had let ourselves believe, and we realize it’s because we aren’t recruiting with the big boys.
The people who suck as fans are the ones who come and tell other people how their fandom should work.
Miky B, Other than your first and last sentences, everything you wrote in between seems very fair, and I hope you and Russel Knox (who I take it is hanging in there as a fan in his own way under what are extremely difficult circumstances for all of us) can understand each other in our 18 Stripes way.
On other matters, I have emerged from my “24 hours to feel the suck” and will try a couple of posts to react to everyone above.
You’re a good man, Noise👍👍
Saving recruiting for another post, some reactions to all of you:
1, It really does seem abundantly true that Venables spanked Tommy. Same as he did Chip Long in ’18. I wonder if Tommy wasn’t sucked in by the success on Nov 7th. As we in the War Colleges like to teach, armies learn better from defeats than successes. Of course, Tommy knew Clemson had their big impact players back — against our O-line not what it had been to boot, more below — but it does not appear he compensated for that. Masterful analysis of those 2nd downs, Eric. I wish we still had Larz to underline that with visuals, but you made the point well.
2, Yes indeed, the loss of Patterson has been absolutely huge. It is not so much that Josh Lugg is not a worthy O-line man. It is that blow to the chemistry among the five, which is rare and was at a high level before losing our center. For all the reasons adduced in the 40-plus posts below, we could not afford the slightest hiccup anywhere, and this was and remains a big blow. I see Bama just lost their 2-year much loved center, but they don’t need that chemistry as badly as we do.
3, Unfortunately, Eric is also right about we the fans all needing to stop voicing our illusions of grandeur. This loss was a terrible gut shot, after 2012 and 2018, making us feel we are really still in that second tier (I disagree with the post below that said we are lower than Oklahoma and Georgia). The problem is, the team has to have some confidence that they have a chance. Maybe they can find a middle ground between the chest thumping that clearly pissed off and motivated Clemson, and the sense of “we are doomed” that all of us realistic fans need to feel. I guess. Sigh. Sounds of hands wringing…
We’re definitely below Georgia. Georgia is in the “can realistically aspire to win a playoff game” tier, whereas we are in the “can realistically aspire to make the playoff” tier.
OK recruiting. I am pretty much (reluctantly) in line with those who will say that we cannot match the top three if we don’t get at least a smattering of 5 star level talent. ND was at the current Bama/OSU/Clemson level under Leahy, 46-49, and would have continued to dominate if Father Hesburgh had not felt he had to get the program under control.
I do agree more with those who point out that the vast majority of five stars are not coming here, period.
Having said that, Eric has been claiming for a good while now that BK needs to do better, that there is more juice to be squeezed. While admitting that is the case, we should remember that BK himself said this strenuously around the Iowa State game. What happened, did he just forget? My personal vote is COVID-19. Given the impediments that today’s Notre Dame presents to recruiting today’s 5 star athletes, it seems clear as can be that getting those kinds of recruits AND THEIR FAMILIES on to campus was a huge part of BK’s projected strategy. That became impossible. I will argue that the top three (even tOSU, as they do not have the academic issue) did not have the same vital necessity.
Finally, as to QBs — it is amazing how both at the NFL and college level so much has come to center around elite QBs. I have to say that I feel that some of that is in the laps of the gods — who will turn out to have “it” is a bit of a crap shoot. For now, last year we all thought Tyler B might be such a guy. Now, we don’t know. But it’s not like BK wasn’t recruiting him, and when he committed that he did not appear to have a truly elite ceiling. For me, I do hope he still has — though, true, hope is not a method.
As usual, goos common sense from you Noise.
my only disagreement isn’t whether we must do better with true elite recruitment, it’s that I don’t think it possible. We are an anomaly in CFB. It’s amazing and gratifying that we do as well as we do given the focus on money driving the whole scene, thus most of our top competitors will do whatever it takes for more millions. Including getting the top recruits.
Thanks, Kiwifan,
Sorry to be slow on this, combo time zone and grading grad students.
I am really sorry to say this, but the entire discussion on this thread is driving me towards your position that true elite recruiting looks next to impossible. That has become more and more evident — as are the consequences.
It looks like we will be stuck in the next under tier. We could have hoped for a Natty in the BCS era — if Kansas State had made it to Miami in 2012… But the playoff will bar that path. Leaving fighting spirit and character, and a little blessing coming our way. We as fans need to hang in their, a character test for us as well.
I agree that recruiting a little better more consistently is possible. And I think that comes down to the head coach at a school. Whatever draws kids, especially the super talented ones destined for the NFL, does not seem to come naturally to Kelly and I think his lack of motivational ability or charisma, or whatever it is that let’s worse coaches like Weis or Helton or Mack Brown (now) recruit better at less healthy programs is also why ND no shows in big games. He’s trying to get there since 2016, you can see that with the Megaphone dancing and the rivarly trophy stuff. Even this year, talking about Clemson games ahead of time clearly pushed the right button for alot of guys. But its hit or miss because then more often than not ND doesn’t even show up in games like saturday. Losing because you don’t have the same level of talent or depth is one thing, but not showing up so many times for once in a career games (for the players) over a decade? That’s Kelly. I give him credit and am glad to have him at Notre Dame. He’s is a great coach and is on an awesome run with the talent he has and has worked to develope, and as a fan I’m grateful to enjoy it. But I know more is possible. I just hope he can figure out the last piece of the puzzle.
And given how well he’s done with some incomplete ND teams, I feel like he could do serious damage by even a moderate uptick in recruiting.
That’s what is frustrating to me. Just a 2 or 3 more 4-stars per cycle could make a big difference and inch the program closer.
With the Early NSD I had been critical of the staff receiving too many commits too early but this year they waited longer it seems. Maybe it was Covid related? It’s probably likely that it forced their hand a little bit.
But, we brought on 11(!!) recruits for 2021 during this season when we’ve been riding very high as a program.
The highest rated was Colzie (#98 overall) who re-committed. No 5-stars, no high 4-stars, and no mid-4-stars, either. We got 4 low 4-stars and 6 3-stars from the bunch. That’s frustrating.
Though for next year’s class we should jump on the recruits early since our season next year is unlikely to be as a good.
I actually think we’ll be right back at 10-11 wins with a great chance of going 12-0 assuming the schedule is the same.
FSU will likely be better, but I also don’t think Norvell is very disciplined so who knows how spring and fall camp will play out.
Then we have Wisconsin who will be tough, but plays a style of football we’re traditionally comfortable with.
USC will have talent, but again they don’t strike fear in me. UNC will be the biggest challenge IMO as they have elite QB play, but admittedly I don’t know many skill guys they lose on this year’s team.
2022 though is another story. You’ve got 2 heavyweights plus UNC. Going to need a lot of 5 stars to hit that class and hopefully be ready for opening day against OSU.
Overall, I think we are finally finding our footing as program in the 21st century landscape. We’re stable and have an admin that is pumping a ton money into the program (the academics are another story that I don’t know anything about). We have a solid identity right now (among coaches and staffs) as a physical team who rarely beats themselves. I don’t know if Kelly is the guy who gets us to the proverbial mountaintop, but I know I’m not trying to force him out the door. I would like him to do some things differently, but it’s much better than being 6-6 year after year.
That’s true. Checking out the schedule, it’s perhaps a bit on the lighter side.
Cincinnati might be pretty tough depending on who they are bringing back.
But there’s no elite squad on there where we may be a bit overmatched or even equal to since some of those teams have lost their luster in the last couple of years. Not sure there are any top 15 teams on the schedule.
I think there’s a solid chance both USC and Cincy end up being Top 15 (if they beat us). Cincy has a chance to make some real noise very early next year with road games against ND (breaking in a new DC and QB) and IU (are they very good, good, or just good compared to a crappy Big Ten East?).
USC is always going to be a crapshoot with Clay Helton at the helm. There’s enough talent there, plus a schedule you can win with. Surely they’ll lose a game or two that they wouldn’t if they had a good head coach, but they do have enough players there to beat some good squads too.
I’m not sure we will be favored in any of the USC/Wisconsin/Cincy match ups. If we had a QB who I was 100% confident wouldn’t cost us a game with a bad decision (i.e. Ian Book), I would 100% agree with you that the schedule sets up for another 10+ win regular season. With the loss of Lea + Book + JOK, I think next year is going to come down to whether or now we have a QB who can be a good game manager. I think our rushing attack should guarantee us a minimum of 8 wins, even if the QB situation ends up being terrible, 9 wins if the QB situation ends up being ok, and 10+ wins if the QB situation ends up being above average.
Very good points and I think Lea’s replacement is critical (obviously, right? ha), but I’m feeling very confident of where the program is right now so I don’t expect us to slide back to 8 wins. I’m less confident he has what it takes to win a NC in the playoff format, but we’re going to be a 10 win team for the rest of Kelly’s tenure IMO
I sure hope so! Year 2 of Tommy Rees should also lead to improvement that could offset some of the loss of Book, and with a healthy Lenzy and Austin, maybe we get production in a completely different way than we are this year.
Don’t sleep on Watts and Johnson.
Don’t comment much but come here after games for affirmation on the good days and well… “you know that feeling” on the bad. Thanks for both.
As I’m not a former player and will never pretend to be an Xs and Os guy: what was the solution on offense? Clemson seemed to lock down receivers in depth, ran the d-line to contain book, and committed a scout in the event he scrambled so… where should Rees/Book have gone? Draw plays? Reverse? Quicker passes? I kept wondering what happened to the tight ends. Assume ‘Bama will watch the tape so, what do you do?
Separately, on the subject of recruiting, I’ve always wondered why it’s difficult to bring a few of those top-talent or near-top-talent kids to ND where they’ll get equal or greater media coverage and national exposure but not be, for instance, Alabama’s 3d best receiver.
Good questions about what to do vs Bama.
re the third best receiver at Bama, if the kid doesn’t like that, he’s got lots of easier choices than ND. Not to mention their top 3 receivers often make it to Sundays.
The first drive of the game should provide a decent blueprint for Rees, if the O Line is unable to generate a push. Venables completely went away from his standard operations; instead of exotic blitzes and DEs rushing way up the field or doing stunts, he had them just try to lock Book in the pocket. And Book picked them apart (at first)! Hit them with some quick, short passing plays (which Book is comfortable with) and force the DBs to either press up on the receivers or throw exotic coverage schemes at the Irish.
After that first drive, Clemson seemed to throw some really intricate zone coverages at Book, which caused him some confusion. The issue there for a defense is that you can easily lose track of guys running deep when you do that. The Irish never seemed to adjust and start sending receivers vertically down field. If you can get Davis/Lenzy running deep (and hit them), you can force the defense to readjust again. Similarly, if the D Line is going to just try to play straight up against your O Line and not try to rush up the outside, get Chris Tyree involved in some outside runs (only getting 1 carry against Clemson was a huge mistake).
There are ways to try to adjust, which I feel we waited too long to do against Clemson, but that still might not be enough against a loaded defense, playing with a backup Center. But there are options to try to get things going if Bama follows the Clemson blueprint.
Starting a new thread, but I can honestly say I’m genuinely shocked and kind of saddened that some are so apathetic about recruiting.
If the past few years is literally the best someone thinks Notre Dame can do in recruiting we are wasting our time. What though the odds be…
Wasting our time in what sense? We’ve been winning tons of games, best run in decades, and I’ve enjoyed it.
I remember back in the Ara days being bitter if we lost a game early in the season and assuming it was a bad year because we’d lost a chance for the NC. I EXPECTED undefeated seasons every year under Ara and Lou, after sitting in the stands as a student watching the ineptitude under Kuharich and Devore. I never really liked Devine but he was a good coach except for under-appreciating Montana.And he won an NC.
But it’s been 27 years since the last real NC contender we had, the 93 team. And 33 since we won it. Meanwhile the game hinges these days on all world qb’s with receivers who can’t be covered, accompanied by monster running backs. We used to be able to get those guys. But there are only so many needles in the haystack, needles being elites who can and want to play at ND. There just aren’t enough of those in the modern CFB monster money oriented environment. They vote with their feet to play where their path to the money is that of the least resistance, playing for the few brand name coaches in the game.
I’m not happy about it, but as others have said, we’re better than all but a very few programs, a testament to the job Kelly (who isn’t my cup of tea, actually) has done. And very enjoyable except for those few very ugly days.
True this. Apathetic? I’m not down on the incoming class. I can’t wait to see these kids play. They’re going to win a lot of football games. Four years from now, on senior day, though most won’t get it, I’m going to feel a sense of pride for these kids as they hug their Moms and realize their dreams of an ND degree have come true and it was all worth it.
We have the HS Butkus winner coming in next year, a stud QB, and many other great recruits. I bet a bunch of them out perform their rankings. Will they win a NC? Probably not. Are they going to be fun to watch? Absolutely!…….Apathetic?….Ha! hardly.
Resigned would be a much better term and it feels wholly antithetical to what Notre Dame (still) stands for.
So does lowering their standards. Even more so.
Resigned to what? No one said just give up. Realistic would be a better term. IMO
Let’s be real here, there’s basically one program putting 120 others chance for a NC, or even competing with them, totally out of reach, 7 or so programs quite unlikely to do it and 2 or 3 others with a legit chance. I think that sucks for college football in general. Who wants to watch them truck team after team, week after week, season after season? If you want to say that I’m “resigned” to that being the state of CFB right now….you’d be correct.
Also, being resigned that we can’t recruit better without lowering standards. That’s another excuse.
You call them excuses, I call them reasons. It’s quite obvious it is one of the reasons recruiting is more difficult.
It’s supposed to be difficult! Where have I ever said it wouldn’t be?
We both agree it’s difficult, that’s not the point I’m making.
If this is the hard ceiling of ND football: should we join a conference? If this is it, it seems like our ceiling is the “could win a conference championship but can’t win a national championship” Oklahoma-y level, so maybe we should have a conference championship to play for?
That’s the natural progression, I’m afraid.
Once you decide we can’t get better and put a cap on what Notre Dame can achieve on the field, you start to dumb down expectations.
What kiwi and tlndma are saying was pervasive in the late 1990’s and early 2000’s and was almost a disease on campus throughout the administration and with some fans.
This is maybe the single thing I’ve always agreed with NDN Rock’s House about: Whining about recruiting being too hard, we can’t compete with the best, we should enjoy the lads hugging their parents, and making all these excuses that point the finger elsewhere toward external forces beyond Notre Dame’s control…it’s this acceptance of mediocrity, or more specifically, a turn away from pursuing excellence that fans should absolutely be horrified to read about.
I feel like Kelly has officially stamped that mentality out of the program, and from what I see, I don’t think Swarbrick & Co. truly believe we can’t get better. I just don’t think Kelly recruits good enough to take the next step and that’s largely his fault.
Yes, Bama/Clemson/OSU are on another level right now maybe in a way that’s never been seen before. But, one harsh lesson of CFB is that things are cyclical and eventually they will get worse. Some day, they will start losing more and it’s possible Notre Dame climbs back and is even better than today because we started recruiting better as those teams fell back.
It’d be nice if we put together better recruiting classes now (because we can!) and put that pressure on so that when Saban retires we’re right there ready to step up.
A disease on campus…egads! Stop the nonsense. They just went 10-0 and somehow “have accepted mediocrity and the pursuit of excellence”. Get it back on the rails.
Maybe, if Michigan ,Tennessee, FSU, Wash, Texas, OKL, Neb, PSU, USC, UCLA etc. etc. all start recruiting a bit better the big three come back into reach. Accepting that they aren’t in reach right now is not “dumbing down” anything.
Putting the state of CFB on ND, Swarbrick and Kelly is really simplistic.
ME: “Hey, Kelly should be recruiting better and not give in to always pointing the finger at external forces outside of ND.”
YOU: “That’s nonsense. Also, these other 10 programs needs to recruit better if we can find any hope.”
Thank you for reinforcing my point 😉
You’re grasping at straws now.
I can’t change your mind, my friend!
I’m quite literally shocked you feel this way after so many years of Notre Dame winning recruiting battles, watching other program empires come and go, and ND overcoming their weaknesses by using their strengths to get better.
You, of all people, I would think should get this completely.
What I do get is that ND is most likely not going to start bringing in multiple 5 stars. I get that academics is a hurdle in more than one way in recruiting. I get that they DO win recruiting battles. I get that they do use their strengths in these battles. I get that there are legit reasons Ala. Ga. OSU have their advantages too. I get that their recruiting is setting historic levels of excellence. I get that there are outside reasons as well inside reasons that ND can’t match up with those three in recruiting right now. I get that those advantages give those three a better chance with 5stars. I get that it would be nice to get three 5 stars next year. I get that that would be 10% of the 5 stars. I get that that would probably be about 60% of the 5 stars they have a legit shot at.
I get that there are 127 other teams ND can go toe to toe with. I think I get the big picture.
You and I have one of these about once a year…Just so you know, I appreciate it. Keep up the good work.
Appreciate it.
I echo Tindma’s thanks Eric. I disagree with you on this topic, but appreciate your work. Best NDsite out there.
Merry Christmas to you and your family.
This is the real state of things, backed up by decades of actual data. Ignoring things you don’t like and calling realism a disease won’t make the facts go away.
Sure, okay.
I can’t help but in. Total agreement on how much you mean to us in this 18 Stripes world, Eric, and how much this world means to our Notre Dame family. So all of you are right. Recruiting true elites has never been tougher for ND (and the times when it has been tough over the past 100 years have not coincidentally coincided with down cycles). But yes, “we” (coach, university) should try even harder. . KG if he’s around will appreciate this, it’s the classic path in blocked strategy. The ENDS cannot be changed (yes, we all want to win more Natties!), the MEANS can’t change without selling our soul, so we have to fashion better WAYS.
You should set up another thread for the off season Eric, with exactly how that harder can be done.
In the meantime, as someone who has invested 25 years and lots of resources in a ND endeavor (louder crowds) — I truly appreciate your own investments. (and thanks to the Staff as well!)
Keep up your fighting spirit, Eric!
And yes — please you, and everyone, have a safe and happy and blessed Noel.
Something to consider. Kelly has never had a complete team. Even the good ones have been flawed in ways that provided a silver bullet for the best opponents. Some of it was an young qb, bad luck injuries, players getting suspended, some of it was sticking with BVG. But look back, if the 2014 and 2015 have the post 2016 defense and S&C program they are dangerous and competitive playoff teams. 2017, Kizer sticks around and Stepheson not suspended, that is a playoff team. With a handful more explosive skill players the 2018-2020 offenses maybe put in enough in the big games. The problem in the ACCCG wasn’t defense, and it wasn’t Lawrence, it was that the offense disappeared.
My point is, Kelly is so close. His comments last year before Iowa state mean he knows it and thinks it is possible. You don’t rebuild everything like he did after 2016 to just stop. He doesn’t need three five stars a year to get there, he needs one and some more high four stars. I think the strategy post 2016 was stability, in recruiting too. With stability and a good program culture established I think the plan was to get into the chase for the higher recruits again and the pandemic busted it.
In 2012, I thought “they’ll probably never have this success again”. I thought the same thing in 2015 when they made the playoff rankings, and again when they made the playoff in 2018. But here they are in the playoff again. He’s a Kizer, a Prosise and a Will Fuller from being able to give Alabama a serious game next week without hope being a part of the gameplan. Non of them five stars.
What you mean is that he’s a top-end QB and an elite WR (not just that Prosise would be the missing link here) away from competing. Everyone I think more or less agrees. But how do you get those elite players? It *can* happen with 3 or 4 stars but then (a) it would help to get even more 4 stars than the other teams to make up for the lack of 5 stars (that’s not happening) or you can just get the 5 stars and have a better chance to have these elite college players.
So I would agree that getting an additional 10-20% 4 stars than the elite teams get would be a winning formula and enough of them would turn in to those elite players we need or getting the 1-2 5 stars each class would also be a way to do it. I’m not picky, I’d take either.
4+5 stars since 2018 (though of course this doesn’t take into the quality of the 4 stars – usually ours are a bit lower)
OSU – 70
Alabama – 82
Clemson – 59
ND – 51
So what I’m suggesting is we’d need to at least equal or surpass these numbers with 4 stars alone (if we aren’t getting 5 stars) to at least have a shot. And again this doesn’t take into account that our 4 stars are usually lower on the totem pole – which is why 10% more is likely what is needed. So instead of averaging like 13 4 stars in a 4 year period it’s gotta be more like 18-20 per year. In other words, almost the whole class has to be 4 stars to make up for the lack of elite players we’re getting.
I don’t argue the numbers of it all. My point I guess is just that Kelly is now doing all the little things to close the gap that the difference in the Clemson and Alabama games being competitive this year is having landed 1 or two more sure thing players on offense a year the last three years.
The difference between 2016 and 2017-2020 hasn’t been better recuiting or a generational players, it has all been sustainable changes made to the program. Add in a little better recruiting, just a little, which is possible, and I think that’s it for at least competitive games against the big three.
Excellent post, thanks!!
“He’s a Kizer, a Prosise and a Will Fuller from being able to give Alabama a serious game next week without hope being a part of the gameplan”
I don’t disagree with your overall point but don’t believe this at all. He’s about 2 future NFL cornerbacks, 1 more NFL safety and 2 more NFL dlineman away from having a chance to slow down Alabama close enough in the first place to have half a hope of making this a competitive game.
“With stability and a good program culture established I think the plan was to get into the chase for the higher recruits again and the pandemic busted it.”
Doesn’t add up either. ND didn’t do enough for 2021 elite recruits from like October 2019 – March 2020 before the pandemic hit to get on anyone’s radar besides Shipley.
But I think part of that problem is that Notre Dame thinks/hopes guys like Fisher, Buchner, Kollie and Spindler really are 5* recruits that just weren’t graded that way. And maybe they’ll be right!
“Well, that’s just like, your opinion man”
But for real though, to your first point I would say Notre Dame has about the same defense, if not better, as Florida does. The line isn’t 17 plus because of our D, its because the offense hasn’t shown any sign it can keep pace. Change that, I think its a game just like Florida was. As far as 2021 recruits, I envisioned the “go after bigger target recruits now” strategy as something he decided around when he said it, and the pandemic was inevitable like a month later.
I hope all those 2020 guys play how we hope. I’m optmistic aboutit and I’m a total pessimist. I really like Estime, he reminds me of a bigger faster Darrius Walker.
I bet MSU is pissed about losing him. I’ve said it elsewhere, he’s better than Shipley. IMO
I want to jump in on the recruiting debate. The discussion seems to break down into two camps, Determinism vs. Agency. In Determinism, the broader forces of college football and the unique qualities and constraints of Notre Dame as an institution more or less dictate the range of outcomes Notre Dame can achieve in recruiting. There’s really not much anyone sitting in the head coach’s chair can do to break outside of that defined range. In Agency, the ceiling for the program is capped by nothing but the head coach’s own abilities in and commitment to recruiting. I think it’s both — the range of outcomes is limited, but the quality of the head coach can progressively improve that range of outcomes over time. We talk a lot about Notre Dame’s religious affiliation, campus life, and geographic location as constraints. Those things can’t be changed, so let’s set those aside. That leaves admissions (getting the recruit in school) and academic support (helping them stay afloat academically once they’re in). According to recent accounts (e.g. Pete Sampson’s reporting), admissions really isn’t a constraint, or at least it’s not as big of one as we imagine. The coaching staff can get most of the guy’s they want in. The challenge is keeping them eligible once they’re here. And even if they stay eligible, keeping the academic stress of doing so from preventing them from reaching their potential on the football field. THAT’S the big difference between ND and the other schools. ND will let you in, but they’re still gonna grade your papers. You still have to take and pass the exams. They can’t really hide you in BS athlete-only programs. We actually have been able to get high four stars and five stars on campus during Kelly’s tenure, including at skill positions. The problem has been keeping them eligible. Greg Bryant, CJ Holmes, Aaron Lynch, Ishaq Williams, Jalen Guyton, Max Redfield, and Just Brent are all players whole were admitted but struggled adjusting to the academics and/or campus culture. When those players flame out, transfer, or stay but struggle and don’t live up to their potential, it leaves holes in the roster and can impact the locker room. After getting burned early in his tenure, I think Kelly did undershoot the maximum “talent” he could have gotten admitted for the sake of talent that he knew could “stick” once here. His comments last offseason about elevating recruiting I believe were about acknowledging that the program was in a place that could be more supportive of helping the “riskier” talents succeed once here. The program 4-10 years ago was not in that place. So what else is holding back recruiting? We’re not the only program in this boat. The vast majority of five stars are going to the same 5 programs ever year. “Traditional” powers like FSU, Miami, and others are on the outside looking in, too. So I agree that we shouldn’t make this out to be too much of a… Read more »