Things were a little nervy early on, then they stabilized in favor of Notre Dame, then things simply fell apart especially on defense. Somehow, the Fighting Irish overcame a brewing Disney movie to survive pesky Florida State in overtime following a Jonathan Doerer dagger from 41 yards out.
Winning is better than losing, if that’s any consolation (it probably won’t be). We’ll see if Florida State shows this same determination and spirit all season long or if this was just a wacky opening weekend college football game that most of the country will forget about. Surely, we won’t forget!
For now, the close victory seemed to expose a lot of problems for Notre Dame.
Stats Package
| STAT | IRISH | NOLES |
|---|---|---|
| Score | 41 | 38 |
| Plays | 70 | 74 |
| Total Yards | 431 | 442 |
| Yards Per Play | 6.15 | 5.97 |
| Conversions | 7/19 | 8/18 |
| Completions | 26 | 14 |
| Yards/Pass Attempt | 10.4 | 6.8 |
| Rushes | 35 | 48 |
| Rushing Success | 45.1% | 50.0% |
| 10+ Yds Rushes | 1 | 8 |
| 20+ Yds Passes | 8 | 4 |
| Defense Stuff Rate | 31.0% | 30.0% |
*20+ yard passes has been added to the table for 2021.
This game seemed in the bag! It was 38-20 with the students beginning to head for the exits and despite a couple really glaring issues (defense giving up big plays & poor running between the tackles) it looked as though the Irish would cruise to an easy cover and get out of Tallahassee in good spirits. Then, a near epic 4th quarter collapse threatened to destroy Notre Dame’s season before they got on the plane back home.
Offense
QB: B
RB: B
TE: B
OL: D
WR: B+
Let’s get right into the bad because the line struggled mightily run blocking and left Williams and Tyree very little room to maneuver. Both backs were forced to test the outside and Florida State had very little problem flowing to the football to make tackles. The pass blocking was fine overall given FSU’s strengths but this run blocking is potentially an issue that might be worth 2 losses all on its own.
Tyree had a 12-yard run on the 4th series of the game in the 1st quarter and that would be the only 10+ yard run of the game for the Irish. That’s unacceptable. First down running was atrocious constantly leaving the team in bad situations. Tyree’s 12-yard scamper came on 1st down, the other 13 runs from that down accumulated just 39 yards with a long of 6 yards.
Coan’s stats will get a lot of press in his Irish debut and with good cause. However, there will be off days and games where the turnover luck will not go the way of Notre Dame. This is an offense that, at least nationally speaking, had a lot of praise for its running backs and if they’re not going to be able to carry the offense at times there are 5 or 6 teams who could beat the Irish–especially when cold water was thrown all over this new Freeman defense.
I think this is why Coan’s stats don’t quite feel so great as they looked in total, which to be fair, is not his fault. He left a couple deep passes a bit short, threw another into the ground, but suffered a couple massive drops from his top target in crucial moments. Otherwise, Coan looked pretty sharp and in command with some big chunk plays of his own through the air.
Is this sustainable? I almost feel bad for Coan because he played so well but I don’t know if throwing 350 yards per game with every third down–as it seemingly felt against Florida State–resting on his arm without much scrambling ability. That’s why it’s hard to look at his yardage totals in juxtaposition with poor 3rd down conversions.
Nevertheless, you have to like how involved Michael Mayer and Kevin Austin were (13 combined catches for 211 yards and 2 TD) as the main receivers while Kyren Williams (6 catches for 83 yards and 1 TD) continues to be a huge weapon in pass game, too.
Rushing Success
Williams – 7 of 18 (38.8%)
Tyree – 5 of 7 (71.4%)
Coan – 2 of 6 (33.3%)
I wonder what the outcome of this game looks like if Mayer catches those 2 drops and the Irish get that roughing the punter call? Anyway, I think it’s really possible Mayer has a Kyle Pitts-type of season basically averaging 100 yards per game. That’ll probably come down to how much Notre Dame throws (probably a lot after this game!) and if Mayer can avoid double teams with a legit crew of receivers for opponents to worry about.
There should probably be some cautious optimism with the receivers but 23 out of the 35 targets went to running backs or Michael Mayer. Captain Avery Davis not only didn’t have a catch, he wasn’t even targeted once. You have to love the 2 big touchdown catches from Austin and Wilkins but still lots of room for improvement to get the receivers going as a larger part of the offense.
Defense
I told you not to anoint Freeman before he even coach’s one game at Notre Dame, but no one wants to listen! However, let me offer some real talk if I may:
The defense is not that talented. Compared to what we saw from Georgia on Saturday the talent doesn’t seem in the same zip code.
The sum has to be greater than the parts, and that wasn’t the case in the 4th quarter especially. A couple of players (Hamilton/Foskey) had big All-American-type games but there isn’t enough game-wreckers to shut things down with individual talent and when things went south quickly the unit as a whole look disheveled.
The tackling was not good for most of the game. I’ll chalk that up to being too aggressive, being too hyped, and getting tired in the first game in warm weather. We’ll see if it improves soon.
One possible explanation for staying in a 3-man front for so long late in the game is lack of depth up front. There’s really no pass-rusher to spell Foskey’s role and MTA really doesn’t have a competent backup yet. Freeman is very aggressive and was probably expecting more havoc even when Florida State was finding success on the ground.
A lot of hope is pinned on the linebackers and they did not play very well at all. I think this group and the defense as a whole really misses Liufau more than we expected. And we all expected it to be a blow.
DL: B
LB: D
DB: B-
If you want to walk back from the ledge, here’s something to chew on:
When the score was 38-20 in Florida State’s possession that spilled over into the 4th quarter the Seminoles rushing success was sitting at a 17.6% with only 3 successful runs! Then they threw 2 straight interceptions! Did the Irish just switch off thinking the game was over?? You could’ve made a case with one quarter remaining it was a very solid debut for Freeman.
Up until Florida State’s 4th scoring drive they’d accumulated 169 of their 205 yards on just 3 plays, including the long touchdown run, nice touchdown pass, and a 20-yard run on a short field after a bad Bramblett punt. The vast majority of the Seminoles’ plays were going very, very poorly until the 4th quarter.
Unfortunately, Florida State ended the game squeezing in 18 successful runs over their final 41 offensive snaps to nearly spring the upset. We talked about some reasoning around the downturn but the lack of adjustments and answers is a troubling debut for Freeman. One or two series before adjusting maybe makes sense, but waiting until after the 3rd with the game nearly lost is curious to say the least.
Stuffs vs. FSU
Foskey – 5.5
Ademilola, Jay – 2.5
Hart – 2
Griffith – 2
Bertrand – 1.5
Ademilola, Jus – 1.5
White – 1
Hinish – 1
Brown – 1
Lacey – 1
Mills – 1
Pryor – 1
MTA – 0.5
Hamilton – 0.5
I thought the line played pretty well, all things considered. They seemed to run out of gas late but 13 stuffs from the unit is extremely encouraging. Even more since MTA (1 assisted tackle) had a very quiet night, you have to figure his performance will improve as he gets more comfortable on the edge.
The linebackers, woof. They really struggled cleaning up a lot of running plays and were not disruptive enough given the importance of their aggression in the Freeman system. Bertrand led the team with 11 tackles but I don’t remember him making a big impact. Drew White had a bad game for his standards. Shayne Simon got in the game and not on the box score again. The Rovers, especially Kiser, were shockingly quiet.
This Kyle Hamilton INT looks unreal from the wide angle but the endzone view is my favorite. Watch him appear out of nowhere and eat up this ground! pic.twitter.com/7jm1lPA8WK
— Daniel Jeremiah (@MoveTheSticks) September 6, 2021
25 tackles, 3.5 stuffs, and zero tackles for loss or sacks from the linebackers can’t happen against any decent opponent.
The secondary played about to expectations, if we’re being honest. Hamilton’s two interceptions were highlight reels for the season, the Lewis interception was a great play, and there were some positive things from young players like Cam Hart. Of course, Florida State’s 2 biggest plays from scrimmage resulted in touchdowns from the non-Kyle Hamitlon safeties unable to make a play, so that’s not good. Although, take away Travis’ long touchdown pass and Florida State went 13 of 25 for 118 yards and a paltry 4.72 yards per attempt.
Final Thoughts
When Milton was inserted into the game I thought he’d hand off and then go back to the sidelines. The fact that he stayed in the game to almost complete the upset is insane. Does anyone feel oddly comforted by the fact that this made for the movie theater story and the ghost of Bobby Bowden haunting Doak didn’t work out in the end? There were some unlucky moments in the game for Notre Dame, no doubt. I feel fortunate that the 3rd down botched snap with FSU driving to win the game ended up derailing their comeback and killing off some momentum. Plus, their missed field goal in overtime.
So, what does Florida State do now with Milton? Is he healthy enough to play a whole game? It’s one of the more weird situations I’ve ever seen. I think you have to go back to Travis at least initially right?
We’re in a Disney movie now.
— 18 Stripes (@18stripes) September 6, 2021
The Irish killed their momentum in the 1st half with the Mayer drop and botched snap of their own on consecutive 3rd downs across back-to-back drives. The game was completely in control and all of a sudden Florida State led 14-7.
The lack of a 15-yard penalty on Bramblett with Notre Dame leading by 10 points was egregious. There was 10:19 remaining in the game, do we think the Irish could’ve salted the game away though?
To that point, the offense in the 4th quarter onward was terrible finishing with 2 punts, the Hail Mary interception before regulation ended and absolutely nothing in overtime. This finish brought us 40 yards on 18 plays with the game on the line, not good. All 4 runs on 1st down on those series were not successful.
Milton 100% fumbled prior to Florida State’s game-tying fumble. He clutched the ball back into his body and his non-throwing hand knocked the ball out of his throwing hand. All is well that ends well, I suppose.
You have to hand it to Jonathan Doerer for calmly winning the game and getting the game ball in the locker room. That’s a heck of a start for someone coming off a shaky 2020.
I still maintain that Coan has a weird arm. His throwing motion is pretty long and he takes a while to release the ball. For a bigger quarterback his arm also isn’t as strong as you’d think. It’s just weird, it’s almost like he’s trying not to throw too hard to maintain accuracy.
Nearly a third of every play for both team’s being a stuff and yet they combined for 79 points. It’s one of the more crazy stat lines I’ve seen in a while.
Let’s hope the Blake Fisher knee sprain isn’t too serious. This game on the road in a tough environment really showed how the Irish only have 1 offensive lineman who has proven his worth while wearing a gold helmet.
I’d rather Kyren Williams not return punts. It’s such a high-risk for injury with little pay off. Plus, let’s just save his reps and body please.
Anyone going to automatically take the points against a better-than-you-think Toledo coming to town with Notre Dame coming off a mentally draining short week? The Irish have generally done pretty well in these spots, especially since 2017, but the college football gods are probably already chuckling at our expense if it’s a tight game, at least for a while.
This is probably day-after emotaposting, but someone convince me we haven’t taken a huge downgrade from Clark Lea. With him, I think this would have been a boring 21-point win.
It’s just one game. But after that game, this is correct.
Let’s get a larger sample size. Fsu was basically bottled up in the first 3 quarters with 2 huge plays being the exception. Coaches on both sides stopped adjusting and went super conservative in the 4th.
Well, OK, but huge plays score points too, even if they’re the exception.
I agree we need a larger sample size — it’s just one game. But I did not like what I saw from that one game, at all.
We went up after the FSU turnover on downs at their own 30-ish. Memory may be hazy from a few sips of bourbon, but right about then
That reeks of a conservi-turtle BK call to throttle back.
Yes, at the time that felt like game over.
https://twitter.com/greg2126/status/1434738377052409858?s=21
FSU offense in 2020: 71 total plays, 405 total yards, 5.7 yards per play 26 points
FSU offense in 2021: 74 total plays, 442 total yards, 5.9 yards per play, 38 points.
I felt that way too but I had forgotten how much trouble F$U gave us last year too.
I think the defense (specifically LB and non-AA Safeties) was flying around trying to create havoc and not playing technically sound football. That’s of course on Freeman (as LB position coach and coordinator). But I am optimistic they can clean that up. It’s one thing that, for good reason, takes some time to gear up to hitting at game speed. There also seemed to be an issue in the losing contain and turning their athletes loose.
Curious to hear people smarter than me weigh in on the scheme. Cant imagine it’s as simple as freeman stubbornly staying with the 3 man front without good reason.
Live and learn. Hoping the freeman experience didn’t peak last night at kickoff … but we’re going to find out!!
OK, this actually does make me feel better.
Adding onto this… FSU’s drive chart:
That brings us to 5:31 left in the third. To that point the defense had had two busts – which, to be clear, absolutely have to be cleared up – and otherwise had allowed 56 yards on 33 plays. 0:54 of game time later, Tyree bulled into the end zone to make it an 18 point lead.
Then Freeman made the extremely puzzling decision to switch to a 3-3-5 look that Mike Norvell was more than happy to run on. The remaining regulation drives:
And finally, when he switched back to a four man front in OT, FSU ran 3 plays for 6 yards and missed that FG.
Things were fine until Freeman either turtled or outsmarted himself or both, which I think are very fixable issues. Everything I’ve learned about the guy since he was hired seems to indicate he’s humble and very willing to critically analyze his own mistakes.
This is some great perspective.
No idea how he didn’t learn a bit quicker and not even try to switch it up on a single drive. I’d be curious what he was thinking about that decision. Was it more prevent-keep everything in front of us type thinking or what? You are right that near the end of that third drive I think he went more 4 down which slowed things up.
That first TD, was that the one Hamilton took a horrible angle? I mean it still would have been a 20 yd gain (or something like that) but not a TD. Probably someone else mistake/missed tackle that even made so Hamilton had to make a tackle.
Then Griffith can beat.
I forget what the third big play was.
Though we also can’t rely on 3 INT – though Hamilton was freaking amazing – esp. on that generational type INT. That it was such a close game even though we won the TO battle by 2 is not good. But if we clean up those big plays too that’ll be the difference.
On the flip side, Travis wriggled out of a *ton* of trouble from our pass rush in the first three quarters. Not every QB we face, even the mobile ones, will be able to do that.
I haaaaaate the decision to go conservative that early, but if he had done it for one drive and then backed out when he saw what Norvell was doing it would’ve been more explainable. Doing it for a second drive? Not so much.
Like I said, he seems like he’s willing to be honest about himself, which isn’t a virtue I could ascribe to every past failed ND DC. So let’s hope.
yea Travis was tough to bring down.
Your sense of his being a willing learner is also what I got from reading Jamie U this summer too. So it certainly seems possible that’s a one-time mistake as befuddling as it is.
In his defense, the opposite occured on offense. The decision to force FSU into 10+ play scoring drives makes perfect sense in a game in which the ND offense had scored 38 points in the first 41 minutes.
But Rees made the same type of shut-it-down decision at the same time, which worked just as poorly on the opposite side of the ball. Defensively, it looks like Freeman’s 3-3-5 scheme was to blame, but on offense it was a combination of play calling and missed opportunities.
Had the offense done ANYTHING in the final frame, Freeman’s strategy would barely be a footnote. Ultimately, the only guy that ties offensive and defensive strategies is Kelly. He has to own a lot of responsibility for the hard pivot on both sides of the ball, which is why his “execution” comment rubbed me the wrong way. The players were executing pretty well (with obvious game 1 exceptions to be expected), until the coaches decided to change everything abruptly.
The most damning thing about it is the fact that the only certainty heading into the game was the raucous crowd. Besides the Bobby Bowden tribute and the fact that last year was a total loss for crowds, every fan base still believes in their team on Week 1. The best way to take a crowd out of a game is to break their spirits. Letting the home team back into the game, even slightly, is enough to create real momentum. You can’t sleep on a lead in that type of environment; BK has been around long enough to know better.
I do think the offense got way too conservative at the end but a few inches would have made a pretty big difference – Mayer’s 2nd inexplicable drop (that’s the kind of play-call you want) and Tyree or Williams who caught and stumbled just short of the 1st down marker to force another punt.
For sure, it was a combination of calls and execution. Result could have been very different if a few plays had broken differently. The stunningly bad officiating call (5-yard penalty after spinning the punter in a full 360) also kept the game interesting.
My point is that it isn’t fair to hang the whole changing tide on the new coordinator. Everything shifted, and most of it had nothing to do with his scheme. His conservative choice would have been fine if the offense could have stayed on the field long enough to give his guys a breather. The defense would have played better, AND the Seminoles would have been forced to throw downfield more to stay in the game, playing straight into his setup. It could easily have been a 4-interception game as FSU got progressively more desperate. Instead, ND had a 12 men on the field penalty as they were too tired and out of sync to complete a sub in the red zone.
Definitely agree here. I lost my mind real time at both sides of the ball turtling at the same time.
Would also say that, while I grant it would be a little deus ex machina, the missed roughing the punter call was a killer. That came when we were still up 10 and would’ve given us a first down at the FSU 47 with 10:19 left in the game.
Yep. It’s not like we could have run out the clock at that point, but in terms of momentum, a proper roughing call would have taken the wind out of the home crowd’s sails. That crap ACC officiating crew knew exactly what they were doing there, and it wasn’t on the level.
Brendan, you seem to have too many TD’s for FSU on that drive chart.
I think you’re right, but also the 4th quarter defense sure reminded me of ND USC 2019. Just content to put nobody in the box and let them march on us for some reason. Hopefully it was one weird outlier. Freeman won’t have Hamilton to cover for him next year, so he should probably get his act together sooner rather than later.
That video of Hamilton’s int is AWESOME.
I thought the ball was coming out just before his other hand got there.
I also read somewhere that Travis didn’t go back in because his calves were cramping.
I’d love to see the snaps data for the defense. I thought a ton of guys got PT sticking to Freeman’s 1A/1B – everyone plays kind of mentality.
This i think is the biggest concern. Friend of the site Jamie U just said the game was too big for Freeman last night:
Hopefully he’ll settle down and fix that going forward. If the defense settles down and can tackle and be competent we’ll be ok.
Hopefully getting Botehlo back will ease this a bit. But I thought I saw Nana in there a decent amount of time. Perhaps that didn’t work out well.
If the game was too big for Freeman, we’ve got a problem. Ghost of Bobby Bowden and whatnot but that was not a worldbeater FSU team we played last night or close to it.
We play both Clemson and Ohio State in 2022 and 2023. Hope those games aren’t too big for him.
Well it can change for someone as you get more experience. But yes, otherwise we have a problem.
H/t to ISD’s Matt Freeman for sharing (link) – here’s the DL snap count for the game:
You’d think Mills and Lacey could’ve done more.
I wonder how that compares to past years. That does seem a bit low for the starters doesn’t it? So it would mean that the backups got a lot of snaps. You would think the starters would have been fresh down the stretch.
The starters played about 2/3 of the defensive snaps. I’m not sure but I would guess that’s right about there over the last couple of years as we’ve been rotating pretty heavily. I think the conditions were a huge factor in the fatigue – everyone who was there said the humidity was brutal, and supposedly the reason Travis didn’t come right back in wasn’t that Milton completed the one pass but that his legs were cramping.
That makes sense. It seemed that Freeman has been more intent on getting more guys playing and everyone was thinking we had all this depth in the front 7 (which had since taken a bit of hit) so I was wondering if things changed all that much or not.
I’d be curious to see the LB rotation given the depth there too (though injuries have now sapped that a bit). Kelly had been joking he was quizzing Freeman about how all these LBs were going to play before the injuries.
Given the offseason buzz, I’m surprised Mills got less than half of Cross’s snaps.
Pshhh didn’t you hear the broadcast, they mentioned at least twice that Cross looks like Aaron Donald.
After years of ESPN headlines about our late game collapses, I can live in a world where the current headlines are about FSU’s almost miracle and controversy around BK’s execution remark.
Well, better to talk about that than why did ND really call a QB power on 3rd and 6 with Jack freaking Coan running the ball? Did Rees think Ian Book was still the QB? That was one of the worst playcalls I’ve seen.
That was a head scratcher.
The only guess I have is they expected to get a few and then go for it on 4th?
ND was losing 14-7 at the time and kicked a FG following that failure. Maybe they go for it on 4th and 1 or 2 around the 25? But I think they probably still just kick the FG anyways
Yeah, I have no idea then.
Still isn’t as bad as my personal favorite play call: the fake fg run on 4th and 6 against some random opponent.
Wasn’t that the road game against Virginia? That call (the fake FG run) was earlier in the game before Zaire got hurt, and Kizer put on his Superman cape resulting in the Virginia Man meme.
I think the UVA fake was a pitch that was successful. It was a great call! The fake FG run was at home, but I can’t remember who we were playing. It may also have been UVA.
I thought I remembered it being a fake PAT, not a fake FG
EDIT: Was a fake FG. From the UVA/ND game in 2015 – 4th & Goal at UVA 7(9:29 – 1st) Durham Smythe 7 Yd pass from DeShone Kizer (Two-Point Run Conversion Failed) I’d like to google “Fake FG ND TD” but I think I already know what play will show up #delayofgame
Wasn’t the fake a run by our punter who was the FG holder ?
Moala tore his Achilles 🙁
again right? Isn’t this his 2nd time? Is it the same leg?
Second time I believe. Sounds like other leg
wow what a bummer for him.
Didn’t we have this debate a few years back when it was determined that there was no evidence that punt returners get injured more than normal, was it Explosiva?
Define injured. Kyren limped off the field in game 1 already and we’re going to give him a huge workload. Maybe it was a one-off situation in a “big” road game where they liked him back there but I don’t like the extra miles on him for something traditionally Kelly doesn’t care that much about.
I completely agree, E. If we’re not going to try hard to make punt returns a thing – and we probably shouldn’t – then there’s no reason to stick Kyren back there. Frankly that’s a spot I wouldn’t mind seeing someone like Logan Diggs in once he’s available.
Or Lorenzo Styles. Just saying…
If you think defensive line depth helps explain why we were in a 3-man front on defense way too much, let me introduce you to our linebacker and defensive backfield depth.
They need to play in a 4-man front this year as much as possible. Hopefully Botelho is a go next week.
A really tough turn of events at LB, injury luck not going our way thus far. Need to blow doors off of opponents next two weeks to avoid injury (we can’t lose another backer, Liafau, Moala, and maybe Simon…good gracious), build depth and learn about personnel on defensive side.
Tackling dummies are going to get a good workout next week I think.
I think they think they have good LB depth, which prior to Liufau and now Moala’s injury they did. And I told everyone Freeman would be determined to get more DB’s on the field!
Botelho is so, so key.
You were right!
On the LB depth point, our depth has gone from good to not-good over the course of the week. But it was already not-good when they were doing the most aggressive 3-man fronts!
And, as the 18 Stripes Twitter feed has been pointing out, we were playing defensive linemen at linebacker. Just play them at the line of scrimmage!
I don’t recall. Has he played that much? Botelho I mean?
He was “unavailable” against FSU. We are to understand that it is because of COVID.
January 13th I was concerned Freeman would force players into his scheme instead of fitting the defensive scheme to the players he has, so I was pretty annoyed with the 4th quarter rushing success: https://18stripes.com/find-the-sniper-an-introduction-to-the-marcus-freeman-defensive/#comment-29274
That said, the worst thing the defense did was LB rush fits. They were getting caught in the wrong gaps too often, especially Bertrand and sometimes White. When you’ve got 3 down the bulk of the defensive scheme relies on LBs bein in the right place and making tackles when they’re there, and the LBs didn’t do a good job at either. Both those can improve (or not) throughout the season, so I’m not totally giving up on optimism.
The OL was pretty good in pass-pro, probably a C+ or B-, I only saw one complete breakdown and it was Carmody missing an assignment right when he entered the game, and maybe Correll got collapsed once (?). I may have missed some nuances to the run game, but without rewatching it looked like a very vanilla run game. Almost all (exclusively all?) zone blocking, very little pulling movement, maybe one counter the whole game, only one screen the whole game. It seems like there’s definitely schematic things that can be done to help the OL move the defense off their spots in the rush game that weren’t done last night.
1-0 with clear items to work on that can be improved against a MAC team next week? I think we can be 2-0 in six days, and don’t get me started on that sweet 3-0 record we’ll have a very good shot at two weeks from now.
Was Freeman really shoehorning ND players into a scheme that doesn’t fit?
As Eric’s stats above show, the defense was pretty great for three quarters (with only 2 blemishes of bad plays that turned into touchdowns, which counts too). It seemed like Freeman made an adjustment and tweaked the base formation to 3 DL in order to counter the issues that had developed in order to try and solve the risk of giving up a big play.
As a result though, that didn’t work. So I guess we’ll see what they go back to the drawing board to discover. Beyond just coaching though, it was surprising the center of the defense was getting gashed as much as they did.
Yea i don’t see any evidence of Freeman shoehorning ND players into a scheme that doesn’t fit.
It was just bad scheme in a particular context – bad playcalling.
I think this is a distinction without a difference. Freeman puts Jayson Ademilola and MTA in positions they’re responsible for contain lest they give up big plays. Is that shoehorning good DTs into a scheme that doesn’t fit them or a bad playcall? Yes. Yes it is.
There is a difference between a bad scheme – general philosophy – and bad playcalling.
You’re not convincing me that turning great defensive tackles into non-entities/liabilities at defensive end is a non-scheme problem, but I think I’m fine agreeing with you that we should have made different playcalls in the fourth quarter.
See just below – reply to MIKEYB
Isaiah Foskey played some middle linebacker last night. That’s dumb.
MikeyB I agree.
I took gambit’s comment about shoehorning players into a prior scheme to mean something different. He seemed to mean that a coach has a particular scheme and no matter the players he has he runs that scheme. And I don’t know the evidence presented could possibly conclude that. You’d have to know he’s running the exact same stuff here as in Cincy and you’d have to know the scheme would work better with players that fit better.
For Gambit’s evidence, you’d have to know the DT’s were responsible for contain. I’m not sure that that was their responsibility.
That of course doesn’t mean that he was using the players in the best way possible. I also don’t think Foskey should be dropping a lot (i though he played more like an OLB). Once or twice a game (max) maybe that’s ok. But no more. That has Van Gorder written all over it. But that’s different to say a different player should be dropping there or this player should be rushing more. I think sometimes a Coach gets enthralled that a DE type guy is so athletic that he can drop and gets a little too carried away with it.
Again, different than shoehorning players into a pre-determined scheme.
Yeah, I agree. If it is, it’s way too early to say or know such a thing. But it’s a dude’s opinion from the week Freeman got hired, so that’s pretty much the definition of confirmation bias about what kind of conclusion to expect is reached there.
That said, obviously the scheme/playcalling/coaching whatever you want to call it, needs work and improvement. Which is kind of ironic because ND had a great game on defense until about the fourth quarter, other than the odd big play or two that they gave up.
Exactly. I think his scheme was working in the first 3 quarters (even with some missed tackles) is evidence it’s more the playcalling. Don’t go away from what you are doing just because you are up.
Exact problem predicted on day one.
Same problem is a major contributor in his first game.
“Dude just wants that conclusion.”
Come on, man.
It wasn’t a problem for 3 quarters. It’s what you want to see though, so I get it!
You clearly don’t get it. It was the most predictable possible issue bringing Freeman in and it bit the Irish when it mattered most. Freeman created problems that didn’t need to exist with his utilization of the front 7 and now we need the “playcalling” to change to fix the problem he created in the first place.
Final tip for the day, “They didn’t give up an 18 point lead for the first 3 quarters.” Isn’t a winning argument when you’re talking about what went wrong to give up an 18 point lead in the fourth quarter.
As Jamie U pointed out on twitter, ND had a 26.9% Havoc Rate in first half playing with four down linemen and that dropped to 8.3% after halftime.
My whole point is the adjustment he made was wrong and is the major takeaway. He went too conservative and ND paid, but the initial plan/scheme/coaching was generally working for 40+ minutes.
It’s not that it was a “predictable issue” when there was no issue until he was trying to coast home in a conservative, prevent-style defense!
The conclusion you’re trying to jump to “Freeman would force players into his scheme instead of fitting the defensive scheme to the players he has” isn’t a winning argument….Yet. Lining a few DE up at LB to be zany doesn’t say what you’re trying to confirm it did
“He went too conservative…Lining a few DE up at LB to be zany”
Exactly the same as my point: he put players in positions they couldn’t succeed.
I agree his play calling didn’t work. I said that twice before your ad hominem.
You’re welcome to say again that the bad positioning plus the bad play calling don’t mean there’s anything wrong with the scheme, it’s clearly a definitional issue. At least we agree that changes should be made so we don’t lose anymore 18 point leads.
Please respond however you want, I’m done with this discussion and you’re welcome to the last word.
Definitional differences might be a good agreement to leave it, even if you can’t acknowledge the “scheme” or alignment, whatever you want to call it was effective for 3 quarters and not really that huge of an issue to tie Freeman’s predicted inability to match personnel to the field
Giving up big plays kills you. It only takes a few. Sometimes only one will do it. They had way too many big plays.
Agreed. But some of that is missed tackles/taking bad angles – in other words, bad execution rather than bad scheme.
I meant in any event, scheme, execution, talent, whatever, give up big plays, you stand a great chance of losing.
Yeah fair enough.
There’s no more helpless feeling as a football fan than watching your team get gashed with runs thru the A gap over and over. After the past couple years, I almost forgot how nice it was not to worry about that, like, ever.
Hope that Freeman can get this cleaned up. Given the horses we have in the front seven, it’s unacceptable against just about anyone, but certainly versus FSU.
I thought both coordinators had weird games. Rees came out slinging and, but for one of Mayer’s drops, we would have been rolling. Then, he kept calling run plays up the middle which never worked. I get that we need to keep the defense honest, but it was easy to see that our offensive line wasn’t opening many holes and the yards we were gaining on the ground were purely because both Williams and Tyree are talented backs. I could not get the conservative play calling. As was pointed out here, until late in the 3rd quarter, the defense had actually been pretty dominant, except for three big plays (which could be explained by first game learning process in a new defensive scheme). Then, we went into the “prevent” defense (which is frequently successful in preventing a victory) and didn’t leave it until almost too late. I don’t know if the game got too big for Freeman, or if he was dealing with everyone wearing out due to the heat and humidity. If felt to me that we were constantly on the verge of blowing the game open and then, something weird would happen that would let them back into the game. These somethings included Mayer’s two drops (admittedly, the passes were low but they were on his hands), Kyren Williams coming up short by a hair on a pass catch on 4th and short, the blown roughing the kicker call (was the replay official wearing an Noles jersey?), and the blown call on the 2nd half opening kickoff fumble by the Noles (you can argue that he didn’t fumble but there was absolutely no indisputable video evidence to overturn the call on the field). I’d include the replay official’s decision to rule that Milton’s fumble was an incomplete pass (I agree that he actually knocked the ball out of his right hand with his left when he brought it back in towards his body) but that’s where Karma, instead of St. Bobby Bowden, reared its head and intervened. How weird was that when the Noles kicker completed the 50+ kick that was taken off the board due to Norvell’s TO and then missed the chippy? Karma’s a bitch, replay official! All in all, I am less worried about Freeman’s defense (though our linebackers are dropping like flies, so that is one concern), than I am about Jeff Quinn’s offensive line. Yes, FSU’s defensive line was better than we thought it would be, but our offensive line was worse than we though it would be. I’ll close with a moment of homage to Jack Coan. Everyone is talking about everything else, but few are mentioning Jack Coan’s completion of 8 passes of 20 yards or more, and how he was the main force on offense. Without him last night, we’re dead. He won us that game as much and probably more than Doerer’s winning field goal. Thank you, Jack (I have a feeling I’ll be saying that more and more… Read more »
Sorry about the single long paragraph. Whatever I do, I can’t get to break the text into individual paragraphs. 🙁
We just have to click: “read more” and it puts it into the individual paragraphs you made.
I ran out of time to edit it anymore, but where is “read more” on the screen so I can do it better next time? Thanks.
You did everything you needed to do. It is up to the readers to hit that button and then it looks like the 7 (or whatever) paragraphs you wrote. I hit it and it is not the one big paragraph you see but the 7 paragraphs you wrote.
You probably should be able to click it too (it’s at the end of the text on the screen) when the comment is posted.
Thanks. I get it. Appreciate all the help, guys.
Correct me if I’m wrong but two things I thought I kept hearing most of the off season was our excellent depth in the front seven and how Freeman’s scheme at least while at Cincy gave up many more chunk plays than Lea’s at ND.
That said, I thought tackling was the main issue. Didn’t we have an early game last season with the same problem ?
Yeah the tackling was brutal. But the LBs were also taking on guards all game, and that’s going to wear you down. I’m hopeful this was just first game rust, and the guys who are supposed to be solid-but-unspectacular actually play that solid football we’ve been promised.
Edit: Oh and I’m not sure if this would qualify as early last year or not (game 3), but we struggled tackling Travis last year too.
I think you’re thinking of 2019 – we replaced some guys in the front seven then and opened at Louisville.1 QB Jawon Pass gave us some fits as a runner early. They had 43 runs for 277 yards (scrambles included but not sacks). FSU had 43 runs for 298 yards. So pretty similar.
The moderately troubling thing for me is that the sequencing was flipped – Louisville ran all over us early and then did nothing later, while FSU was mostly dead in the water early and then came on late. But, as I said above, I think it’s reasonable to argue that it was because of an error by Freeman, and further to argue that he’s willing to examine his errors critically.
To that point, it’s worth sharing a quote that Jamie Uyeyama got from him in the spring and reposted today:
Hey, had a question about the last defensive third down in regulation.
https://youtu.be/mu4xGNwz0OY?t=1445
Is this intentional grounding? Ball is snapped from right hash and shotgun snap is low and goes past Milton on his left side. He is able to pick it up and throw it out of bounds, but clearly never gets outside of the “tackle box” (because he throws it from a spot a few steps to the left of the right hash)? His throwaway pass does get past the line of scrimmage, however.
Maybe I’m getting the rule confused or maybe the NFL rule is different, but I didn’t think you can just sail a pass out of bounds to avoid a sack if you are inside the tackle box? But maybe all that matters is getting the ball back to the line of scrimmage?
Would have made the game tying FG a 57 yarder instead of a 42 yarder…big difference!
If I remember correctly, I think there was a WR in the area. The ref may have even pointed towards him.
Correct, this ball went directly over a receiver’s head.
Thanks guys. Guess I didn’t appreciate how close the receiver needs to be, clearly wasn’t an attempt to complete a pass to the guy but sounds like that’s not required at all. Was 10 yards above his head and 20 yards to the right. Smart play by the QB! The more you know…
Yea, it was a really a very heads-up/veteran/wily kind of play esp. under such duress with the bad snap.
But yea it just has to be “in the vicinity” which is understood very broadly. It doesn’t have to be catchable.
Relatedly, what about the fumble that became an incomplete pass upon review? Can they penalize that for grounding?
I think even Brady Quinn said as much, but idk. It kinda looked like the ball just slipped out and he was lucky it was going forward and ruled an incomplete and not going back and being a fumble. I don’t really think he “intended” to ground the ball, yet that’s kinda what happened.
That’s the other saving grace of this game is that almost every close call and review all went against Notre Dame, the unlikely Milton story, etc. It almost couldn’t have conspired more against ND and they still won. Hopefully getting all of the crazy out early.
Glad you brought it up but I don’t like Kyren on PR, either. Frankly, it seems like a perfect way to get Styles on the field at a point when he’s not a necessary component of the offense (again, like Williams is). Then again, I understand why you might not want a freshman in the role in a big opener on the road. But I hope to see him worked in over the next couple games.