There are coaching losses and there are coaching losses. For this game, the plan was fine (good, even – had one of those inside runs broken maybe it all would feel different), the placalling was fine. Turnovers, if you (as you should) count Cincy’s missed field goals as turnovers, ended up even.
But. ND set a half on fire by starting Jack Coan. Nothing against the kid but he just cannot get it done now that opponents understand the general offensive weaknesses, and his specific ones. He threw an egregious pick on the goal line. The notion of balancing Coan’s weaknesses with a package for Tyler Buchner led to another egregious interception, and more points for the Bearcats.
The offense averaged 5.48 yards per play with Pyne at the helm. Not a stunning figure, but credible. In the first half, they averaged 4.2 yards per play. A +1.3 YPP differential in a game between two teams would be a quasi-butt kicking. It’s not a fraught decision from a competitive perspective.
Kelly should’ve started Pyne. He should’ve put Pyne in earlier. He didn’t and it resulted in a dreck of a game and a bad loss to a not-that-special Cincinnati team.
We will now be largely irrelveant for the rest of the season, nationally speaking (something which is bad on its face but carries benefits of its own).
Some stray observations:
- Incredible that we finally lose a game when the OL puts together, by some measure, its best performance of the season
- Brutal, brutal game for Kevin Austin
- Mayer’s hamstring (groin?) injury is something to worry about going forward
- A surprisingy unlikeable Cincinnati team! Have to say I’m not dreading the prospect of watching them get pasted 91-0 by Alabama in the playoff
Finally, some good look-alikes this game. Luke Fickell could step into the next Michael Meyers film as the hapless hardass sheriff of Haddonfield, IL and no one would miss a beat. Desmond Ridder, impossibly, looks and acts exactly like a young Billy Bob Thornton (unintentionally, I think). Most of all, Drew Pyne looks and acts exactly like Mac from It’s Always Sunny in Philadelphia (less confident in the untinetnionality here).
Well, from here the season becomes an intimate affair among us hardcore fans. Let’s be excelent to each other
I have to give Cincy credit for that drive after we closed to 17-13. It was helped by JD Bertrand’s sudden inability to set an edge on a run play.
It is difficult, with the benefit of this hindsight, to see why the coaches didn’t start Pyne to begin with. And why were we still inserting Buchner into the game in the 2nd half? It may have been only for one play, but being down 17-0, you don’t have plays to waste.
I understand that they were running Mayer out there at the end almost as a decoy. But I hate the idea that they may have worsened his injury. I kept playing after a muscle pull once and boy, I just made it worse and worse and worse.
I doubt that Lenzy and Austin strike fear into many teams’ hearts. Manos de Piedra.
We celebrated him last week, but this week, Chris Tyree is not getting any garlands from anyone.
Yes, we are of marginal relevance now, until the end of the year. And if we lose again, can you say “Poulan Weedeater Bowl”? (I’m being somewhat sarcastic but you get the point).
Did Madden get hurt or was he taken out. I think they’ll be some changes now (OL-WR) that the team has lost a game. Did Botelho play? It occurred to me post game that I didn’t see him. Gave them 10 pts. This team isn’t good enough to do that.
Yep, gave ’em 10 and it should have been 16 if their kicker didn’t totally suck. Really shouldn’t have been even close in the 4th with as poorly as Notre Dame played. Sometimes it bes like that.
Ridder was surgical in that last drive and he’s very good bu,t overall Cincinnati to me didn’t seem top-5 strong. Very well coached, but if they played Bama or UGA it would be a bloodbath.
Not a top 5 team, disagree.
Bama and Georgia are another level. Cincy can certainly hang with teams 3 to 5.
That’s being very generous. Cincy is, AT LEAST, in whatever tier 3 would be – not tier 2 (behind Bama/Georgia).
Ehhh I dunno about that. I think we all agree ND is just not very good this year and I certainly didn’t feel like Cincinnati was THAT much better today. Definitely better as a team, but not 3-5 better. No way.
Good way to put it, that’s what I meant. Given this year, who knows where Cincy belongs. But I feel like you know a playoff team when you see one — especially held up against ND who is pretty much a gatekeeper in a good year to be a low-end playoff team.
This isn’t a prime ND team, and they had bad execution offensively. Cincy deserved to win, but when Notre Dame played others you could feel their strength. I didn’t feel that today.
Fair point too about this year. Maybe they do end up 3 or 4. Doesn’t mean thats always the 3rd or 4th best team as we’ve seen before. Probably doesn’t matter who’s 3 or 4 anyway lol
Um, no, Bernie
Were you watching the same game I was? The offensive line was brutal, as they have been just about every game. They were certainly no better than last week. The Buchner INT was 95% offensive line, 5% Buchner, for example.
But, yes, there is no point in playing Coan behind this offensive line. He could be good if he had time, but he will not, so what’s the point?
Jeff Quinn is the closest thing we’ve had to an offense-side BVG under the Kelly era. The “he was the wrong hire” people were not wrong with their takes, just early.
Buchner had no business throwing that pass. Yes the offensive line allowed the pressure but he needed to eat the ball or try to throw it away. He tried to complete it. Coan did the same thing.
Rewatch the play. He did not have any time on that. That was almost entirely on Carmody, who barely blocked his man. That would be like blaming Pyne for his fumble against Wisconsin.
First off I am not trying to absolve Carmody for being badly beaten on that play. The Pyne fumble versus Wisconsin was practically a blind side hit. With Buchner he could see the Cincy defender had him and rather than eat it or throw it away, he tried to complete the pass.
Yea we had no business CALLING a pass play with Buchner in there on third and long. Coaching error there.
The one effing time we actually have Buchner do something the defense didn’t assume he would do…
Defense was very valiant. Offense was….ugh. Kinda quit on this game when Pyne completed 2 decent passes to Mayer then Austin and they decided to put Buchner back in. Beyond idiotic to pull a QB getting into a groove at that point (especially for Buchner, who didn’t provide basically anything prior to that!)
Tough loss if only because this wasn’t Alabama or Trevor Lawrence out there. Just too many turnovers and other mistakes. Shame, but, oh well. It will be interesting to see what is next.
Also kinda telling how the o-line didn’t look constantly shitty with Pyne in. Looks like the worst o-line ever every time Coan is and and holds the ball forever. Not really sure I need to see any more Coan. Might as well go Pyne and Buchner and get ready for the future at this point.
Eh, not that valiant IMO. The offense finally showed some life with Pyne getting us within a score, and the defense immediately let UC dog-walk them down the field for the clinching TD. Everyone’s fingerprints were on this L.
Situationally, you’re right. That’s where Ridder’s class shined through in that moment to put the game away.
The ND defense held Cincy to 2/11 on third down. They gave up 61 yards in the first half. That aforementioned TD was the only points they gave up in the second half. IMO, the defense couldn’t have been much better. With a semi-competent offensive performance and fewer turnovers, Notre Dame wins today.
If you said 12 hours ago that ND is only going to concede 24 points when the team gifts Cincy two very short fields, that’s a hell of an outcome for the defense. Can’t ask for too much more than that given the hand they were dealt. The real issues are going to be in other directions.
The defense should’ve been able to hold out one more drive, but they were asked to do way too much in the first 3 quarters to keep the game in play.
Disorganized thoughts:
-I’m glad this will spare us a clownfraudulent playoff appearance against UGA or Bama. If Cincy wants that, it’s all theirs.
-Pyne is the only choice going forward, but I’m not going to give the coaching staff too much heat for trying to avoid a QB change going into this game for the reasons we discussed this week. That said, there is no excuse for them to play Coan going forward. That era is over. Move on.
-I’m pretty f-ing annoyed with Rees right now. Yeah, it’s hard to call plays with this OL, but we just waste so much time on stuff that makes no sense and isn’t going to work. The end of the first half was brutal.
-Relatedly, it might be time for some house-cleaning on the offensive staff this season. Clemson and Ohio State are on the schedule both of the next two seasons and we are a long, long way away from being ready for that.
There is zero reason for Quinn or Del Alexander to be on the coaching roster next year. They’ve had four and five seasons, respectively, with their positions, and the results speak for themselves. (Yes, the offensive line last year was really good, but those were Patterson+a bunch of Heistand guys. This is the first true Quinn line, and, woof.)
Also they should probably have a standalone QB coach.
Enough about that Heistand garbage. It’s been asked & answered dozens of times already. If we want to move on from Quinn, fine, but the ridiculous gymnastics employed to deny him any shred of credit for past success needs to stop.
We’re over three and a half calendar years into the Quinn tenure, and the only Quinn recruit who has demonstrated serious in-game talent is Patterson. Yes, Fisher appears to have a lot of potential. Yes, Alt probably will grow into a serious player. Yes, Correll might end up being okay if he shifts over to center.
But, the results are the results. That’s all ifs and future-years stuff. There’s a massive gap in terms of guys he recruited/developed from 2018-2020, and more than anything that is the reason this team is not very good.
I agree 100%. Eichenberg said Harry focused on starters. Hainsey was good from the get go, but certainly the success of Eichenberg, Patterson and Banks and the 2020 line can be traced to Quinn’s stewardship, or just individuals playing well under his guidance.
Hiestand was gone for 2 years by the 2020 season, giving him the credit for last year’s beast line is looking at history the way one wants to. The quality of recruits has been fine. Quinn is deserving of criticism and development but the data is clear that Coan turns pressures into sacks a lot more than expectation.
yea i’d like to see a closer analysis of the OL situation. It’s not clear to me that Quinn is simply a problem and needs to go.
It might be best for a change, I just don’t think it’s fair or accurate to frame it that Hiestand gets all the credit and Quinn just followed in the wake.
Also, cynically, there’s also probably a reason Harry took a golden parachute to the NFL the year when Nelson and McGlinchey left…Once you’re at a peak like that there is only one way the performance is going to go. Not saying he sabotaged anything, but clearly the OL play of 2017 wasn’t going to be maintained with different guys coming in.
I thought he kind of gave up recruiting at the end and so we were left with one of those classes where no one panned out.
If you want to say the senior leadership on this line is Heistand’s fault, that’s completely fair – the 2018 line class was 3/4 commits he took, and the only one that worked is a Quinn guy (Patterson).
On the other hand, if you want to give Quinn developmental credit for last year’s line, you have to give him developmental un-credit for that 2018 class.
In any case, the 2019 and 2020 line classes are all Quinn, and it’s really bad:
2019
Correll – playing out of position; is below-average in current role
Carroll – recruiting dud
Kristofic – not good
Olmstead – worse than not good
2020
Baker – apparent recruiting dud
Carmody – see today’s performance (though I think he’ll end up serviceable eventually, just not now)
2021
Fisher – looks like a future star, but hurt
Spindler – ?, but can’t start on this line so maybe not a total stud
Caleb Johnson – ?
Joe Alt – probably will end up being the second- or third-best of all the above-listed players (if you include Patterson)
Coogan – ?
Also got Cain Madden as a transfer, which, not great!
I don’t think that’s quite fair about the 2018 class. Patterson ranked 369 was the highest ranked OL for that class. The other 3: 515, 516, and 716. That’s not necessarily on the coaching they received afterwards then that they didn’t work out.
Agreed on 2019 – clearly not a good job of developing those guys.
I think it’s likely that anyone after that is too young to know for sure in 2020-2021 classes. We’ve been so used to guys only needing to play when they are at least juniors (with a few elite ones breaking through younger) – so judging them on being thrown out there before they are ready to play is not quite comparing apples to apples.
I actually wonder how much covid has played a role in this where the one time we need to inexperienced and young OL ti play it includes a group who missed a whole spring (so in some ways they are behind time-wise developmentally).
But this also doesn’t take into account any development that Quinn did with the classes before. I haven’t looked into it so I’m not sure.
But Harry leaving a dud of a 2018 class is really hurting right now. It may it pretty necessary for a lot more of the 2019-2020 guys to pan out than maybe even normally happens.
I listened to the Pod of Gold podcast (SB Tribune’s Eric Hansen and Tyler James) the other day. They had Aaron Taylor on as a guest and he explained a lot about the O line issues and also talked a lot about Quinn. It’s a great listen. (not sure how to post a link)
https://traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/a858b0a5-e5e6-4a14-9717-a70b010facc1/a34f28db-cfc3-4e6d-bd90-aa5e01718b18/6903fbf7-9846-4616-8368-adb20033f313/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=994ae0e3-59e6-40ff-9ce9-aa5e01718b39
I also recall reading somewhere this summer that ND’s O line was one of the least experienced in the country (?).
The bottom line from what Taylor said is that experience is HUGE for good O line play. Not just being older, but playing together. It has absolutely showed this year. Every single guy is playing next to someone.new.
Now, it could be that Quinn really is not great, but his lines the last couple of years have been very good and I think that buys him a bit of leeway (he was also O line coach at UC when Kelly went 12-0 in 2009. I’ll trust Kelly on whether to keep him around next year.
Interesting! I look forward to taking a listen.
But it would make sense since this is not only one of the least experienced line in the country (if that is true) but likely one of the least experienced in the last decade. It’s not usual to lose 4 experienced guys from the year before is it? Don’t we normally lose 2 or 3 at most from a year? That would be an interesting stat to track down.
That sounds nice, but Bill Connelly has found that to not be true at all. One of the least-predictive components of returning experience is offensive line starts.
Well thankfully neither Clemson nor OSU look like elite teams at the moment. Though I’m pretty confident OSU’s offense will be elite the next two years with more experienced QB play. I’m less confident about Clemson though. They are having their own struggles on OL and a 5 star QB who hasn’t played well behind that putrid OL.
I know, but we’re going to have to score on their defenses, not their offenses.
Well right now OSU’s defense is not very good.
I mean the bigger point is we aren’t really ready to score on ANY defense at the moment.
All the people who spent an offseason claiming Jeff Quinn and Del Alexander are Actually Good need to shut the hell up forever.
Lousy game. Some thoughts:
-As if turnovers themselves aren’t bad enough, turnovers that put Cincy in scoring position were horrible
-Coan looked like crap behind that o-line. It improved slightly with Pyne and Alt in at LT. Pyne looked like a young, somewhat average QB, but the offense seemed to open up more with him in instead of Coan
-Madden looked horrible on some snaps, like a matador
-Watching Austin is so frustrating…so much talent but he can’t consistently catch the ball. Play the young receivers more – not all the time, but give them more snaps.
-The defense was okay…they were put in some tough spots in the first half and those scores against them were understandable. But giving up some of those drives later in the game was frustrating to watch
-This looks like a team that is going through a rebuilding year, and I think most of us expected a couple of losses this year. So, this loss was not that surprising, but it still sucks to lose to a G5 team when at home
I wonder if we’ll see more of Colzie and Styles this year because, despite all the talent Austin and Lenzy are very inconsistent.
More down on Austin than Lenzy. Austin was being hyped as another claypool.
Lenzy was a threat on screens or jet sweeps in 2019. Puzzled why he no longer is.
Well Austin does seem to have that Claypool athleticism. Just not the hands.
I don’t know what the answer is but the drops, especially at critical moments, are inexcusable for a #1 receiver. That drop today was a back breaker.
Agreed. Austin has all the physical talent in the world. But he needs to be sure-handed otherwise all that talent can’t be used.
I hope Austin’s studies are going well because he absolutely does not have a future in the NFL if he keeps dropping catchable balls.
Agree on Madden, but Lugg is no better.
The Oline gave up more brutal sacks today, even with Pyne in the game. It’s tough to watch….
C. Lewis had a very, VERY rough go of it today…..and that’s being kind. Hopefully he bounces back.
The Buchner package needs to go away unless he is allowed to pass on 1st and 2nd down. Otherwise is a waste of a series, because as of now it’s run, run, pass and EVERYONE knows it.
JD Bertrand covering a TE in man to man with no help in the middle of field is not good.
Even though this team is severely flawed and (if we’re all being honest) a loss(es) was/were coming at some point in time it’s frustrating it came today due in part because of the turnovers.
It’s so frustrating that all the offensive talent is being wasted this year. I mean, the replay of Mayer’s last catch shows him limp over to the outside to lineup, and at the snap dude straight up ignores it and ole’s one of Cincinnati’s “NFL caliber DBs” like the guy is a shower curtain and then makes a monster catch. That stuff is just wasted this year. Kyren and Tyree and Davis, and Austin (I know, I know but…still he has it when he’s locked in) all that just left untapped.
I agree with the frustrations. But looking at it from a global program perspective, its good to see consistent talent finally year after year. It just seems like they can’t quite get all the pieces at the same time. I don’t know, maybe the last couple playoff years was it? Those were pretty darn good teams. They just had to play other generationally great teams when they got there.
Our fan base is an absolute embarrassment. Every season ticket holder who sold their ticket to a Cincinnati fan should lose their tickets. There is absolutely no excuse for what that crowd looked like.
I would guess about 20% of seats that should have had ND fans were filled by a red shirt. Not to mention the “down in front” crowd.
^Clown town
Care to add anything to the conversation, Drink?
What other top 25 type team do you see that type of split crowd at a home game, in a match up against top 10 teams?
We have no homefield advantage. ND stadium is not a “tough place to play”
It’s not that big of a deal.
TV makes it seem way worse, it was far from a split crowd. Those extra Cincinnati fans didn’t seem to bother Notre Dame in any way, we certainly can’t suggest removing all those Cincy fans for ND fans makes it tougher on the visitors, and in general I think the mixture is good for the atmosphere.
I don’t think there needs to be another discussion about gatekeeping in regards to who is a “real fan”. Same discussion when UGA played at ND, same with OU before that, same will be true when Clemson and OSU and aTm and Arkansas and Alabama play at ND in the next few years.
It’s very hard to overcome the twin factors of our fan base (and certainly our richer fan base) not being locally concentrated like literally every other college football fan base and games against us being absolute decades-long highlights for some opposing fan bases.
I do wonder if, given ND’s not even attempting to hide how much revenue maximization has become a priority over the past several years, some fans have decided ‘OK, if you’re making this a business relationship, then so are we’.
agree with all of what you say! Pyne should’ve been the QB from play 1! Cincy isn’t that good and are very unlikeable. Now everyone will be trying to get them into the playoff because for some reason people are desperate for a group of 5 to get in! I hope they do get in and lose 91-0!
The offense was obviously bad, but what the hell was Freeman doing on the TD drive before half? He again goes back to playing Foskey as a coverage LB. Our best pass rusher, lined up as an ILB, dropping on every play. Every time he does this we give up big chunk plays.
Can we play Fosky at QB?
I hate that alignment. It reminds me a lot of Brian Van Gorder days.
They had one big play where they just ran right past him because he is a DE. It’s one thing having him drop once in a while as a surprise on a zone blitz. But to have him lined up there is a free first down for any competent QB (as every team so far this year has shown).